Active Users:226 Time:28/03/2024 08:03:15 AM
Nah, those were just extreme examples Dylanfanatic - 17/01/2003 09:16:03 PM

I'm not going to debate every point, as we will quickly find ourselves talking past, or over, one another. However, I'll just toss out a few quick things, and hope IE does not attack me again.

Luckily, it didn't. Did you experience the 20 minute logout bit that goes on at this site? If so, might want to do what I do and log into chat and just idle.

You say we speak of different definitions, and then toss a few examples, such as people shying away from AIDS infected persons, blacks, gays. Popular culture is not something that is difficult to define. It refers to things which are popularly accepted by a nation ,though one could make the argument for races, religions, etc.; here we speak of the US, so we will use the term nation. By popularly, I mean the majority of people accept it, or do it, or participate in it. I am sure you would not dispute this. Next, we must look at the nature of Chomsky's statement:

I gave those extreme examples as just a way to catch attention. The problem with defining "popular culture" is what you include and what you don't. I was trained as a cultural historian, and for us "popular culture" included those things that made the majority of a populace different from their elitist overlords. They included certain attitudes, customs, traditions, ways of speaking a language, paralanguage, rituals, etc. Many of these elements extend back to half-forgotten beliefs on how the world should run. So when I say "popular culture", I'm referring to something grounded in a historical past and deals with how people relate to the world around them. I don't separate the State from the Popular beliefs here as it deals with the United States, because many of the laws and political actions are based on popular beliefs/attitudes, unlike many of the other governments in the world, past and present. So when a State's law or action might fall within expectations of popular demand and may be based on those attitudes of the populace, then it has to be included.

"The US, in fact, is one of the most fundamentalist cultures in the world; not in the state, but in the popular culture."

My basic problem with your examples, is that they do not really address this statement, and the distinction he draws between the state and popular culture. The state discrimination example, or the divorce one, are examples of state fundamentalism, if they exist.

Let's look at this from another vantage point. You can have actions and beliefs based solely on those in power. That would be State or Elite fundamentalism separate from that of the people. But when you have a government whose policies reflect the attitudes of the populace, then it would by all logic be practically the same as the prevailing popular culture. It's not just what the State passes, but how the people accept these actions. In the case of the majority of American legal traditions, the people accept these with little question, in part because they correlate so well with their attitudes about whom is most fit to do what.

The "shying away" from a person with AIDS is certainly not a part of the popular "culture"; it occurs due to ignorance, when it occurs at all. Would you make the argument that most people shy away from a person who speaks a different language or is black?

Cannot ignorance be part of a popular belief? Have you ever tried to avoid stepping on a crack, walking under a ladder, etc. because of some "silly" belief? And yes, yes I would make that argument for the examples you made because of beliefs that people have held (wrongly, I believe, but still they were held and some still hold them) that contact with those who are different is akin to being with someone "unclean" or "inferior." Ever wonder why there are often difficulties in interracial or cross-cultural marriages? There's more than love between two people involved there, unfortunately. What's the source of it? Prejudice? Probably. Where is the source of that prejudice? Beliefs passed down from others to the individuals involved. And what of those beliefs? Have some of those arisen from interpretations of religious texts that we might disagree with vehemently today? Mayhap. So if you look further into it, there is grounds to discuss a deep-rooted religious belief of what is and what is not fundamentally right and wrong in the popular culture of Americans, based on the definition of popular culture that I gave above.

You have run quite far from the statement, and, I think, given too much leeway to the term "popular culture".

I'm a historian - we define popular culture differently than Anthropologists or Sociologists do. Just ask Alana sometime

Maybe not so quick, but I did restrain my fingers somewhat.

Good for you.


Dylanfanatic

Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

OF Blog of the Fallen




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Noam Chomsky - 16/01/2003 10:22:46 PM 255 Views
I think Chomsky has some axes to grind...so I think he's off the mark *NM* - 16/01/2003 10:25:05 PM 3 Views
Re: Have you read much of him? - 16/01/2003 10:27:38 PM 18 Views
Yeah - 16/01/2003 10:31:12 PM 21 Views
Just a question, since I'm a bit out of my depth - 16/01/2003 10:46:33 PM 22 Views
Re: Mostly, it means Fanatical. - 16/01/2003 10:49:53 PM 23 Views
Alrighty, then - 16/01/2003 10:54:56 PM 16 Views
Re: Okay, thanks. *NM* - 16/01/2003 11:00:13 PM 1 Views
LOL! - 16/01/2003 10:59:57 PM 31 Views
Re: Yes. - 16/01/2003 11:07:48 PM 24 Views
I don't agree. - 17/01/2003 12:12:33 AM 21 Views
Re: Fair enough. - 17/01/2003 10:32:20 AM 16 Views
Um.... I don't think you caught onto my point. - 18/01/2003 04:27:53 AM 14 Views
Re: Thanks for the thoughtful replies. - 18/01/2003 11:55:18 PM 5 Views
My old roommate was a big chomsky fan. - 17/01/2003 12:48:30 AM 23 Views
Re: How would you support his statement? *NM* - 17/01/2003 10:34:08 AM 2 Views
Noam Chomsky - the left-wing lunatic - 17/01/2003 02:30:14 AM 22 Views
Actually I think he's more of an anarchist. From what I've read. - 17/01/2003 08:53:48 AM 12 Views
Re: Thanks. - 17/01/2003 10:38:29 AM 15 Views
He's talking about the Bible-belt. - 17/01/2003 04:48:58 AM 25 Views
Re: Really? - 17/01/2003 10:52:05 AM 32 Views
I guess as one of the few vocal Southerners here, I should answer this - 17/01/2003 11:18:20 AM 19 Views
Re: Culture - 17/01/2003 11:26:17 AM 15 Views
Examples - 17/01/2003 11:41:42 AM 16 Views
My school system is easy to fool, and I'd quite like to read your post - 17/01/2003 02:19:36 PM 15 Views
I can sum it up here, in a few words instead - 17/01/2003 02:38:32 PM 10 Views
I'd agree, but I'd change one word. - 17/01/2003 03:55:22 PM 7 Views
True enough... - 17/01/2003 04:02:10 PM 6 Views
But the Racism/sexism is due to their version of Xtianity - 17/01/2003 03:03:47 PM 12 Views
Fair point. Just pls don't tar me or other Xtians with the same brush. *NM* - 17/01/2003 03:58:25 PM 3 Views
Yeah, but... - 18/01/2003 04:45:37 AM 7 Views
Re: Yeah, but... - 18/01/2003 05:11:38 AM 6 Views
Re: Those are rather flimsy. - 17/01/2003 07:08:33 PM 6 Views
Not really - 17/01/2003 07:36:24 PM 11 Views
Re: A few quickies. - 17/01/2003 08:42:11 PM 5 Views
Nah, those were just extreme examples - 17/01/2003 09:16:03 PM 11 Views
Re: Okay, thanks for your views. - 18/01/2003 11:56:58 PM 4 Views
I guess I see something different in his comment than most... - 17/01/2003 01:34:00 PM 10 Views
Re: Americanization, and I'm not sure I see your point. - 17/01/2003 07:13:00 PM 3 Views
Re: Americanization, and I'm not sure I see your point. - 17/01/2003 07:49:03 PM 9 Views
religious fundamentalism? - 17/01/2003 06:25:27 PM 5 Views
Re: I think you are. - 17/01/2003 07:19:27 PM 7 Views
he's insane *NM* - 19/01/2003 10:44:00 PM 1 Views