I used to have friends who would argue endlessly about these sorts of points with respect to various wars (not just World War II). We usually ended up pulling out histories, biographies of the leaders, tank encyclopedias and the like to make this point or that. I will, as a result, take the opportunity to bring up some counter-points.
I agree completely. Not only that, but existing Soviet fortifications and defensive positions were actually dismantled in the period between 1939 and June 1941. The "Stalin line" and the "Voroshilov line" were two sets of defensive lines that stretched from the Baltic to the Black Sea and were designed to make it much harder for an enemy to just "roll through". However, they would impede the forward movement of Soviet troops in a westward direction as much as the forward movement of enemy troops in an eastward direction.
It's debatable how much of the Soviet debacle in Finland was due to the purge and how much was due to a bad plan by Voroshilov (who was a terrible strategist; he survived because he was a crony of Stalin's but was removed from all actual military command as a result of Finland). Tukhachevsky's own record is spotty - he's credited with defeating Kolchak and developing a Soviet theory of blitzkrieg, but in both cases he may be taking credit for what others did. On the other side we know that he failed in 1920 against the Polish army because he didn't believe in having a reserve, and his best "successes" were in killing innocent villages of his own people with poison gas during the Tambov uprising. When one looks at Blücher, Uborevich and the others, the pattern repeats itself. One of them (I forget which one) commanded the first conscripts of the Red Army on February 23, 1918. They were instructed to stop the Germans. A couple of weeks later, these "heroes" had to be detained as far away as Samara (thousands of kilometers south and east of the "battle" scene). The Germans had stopped on their own for supply reasons. Despite this, the date is commemorated as "Soviet Army Day" and a legend was forwarded for decades that it was a victory against the Germans. In reality, the soldiers (and their officers, up to the ultimate commander) deserted and fled.
I admit that this may be a case of "hindsight is 20/20", but if Hitler had exploited the 1943 breakthrough and broke the Soviet line, he might have been able to recreate the situation in 1941 where mass numbers of prisoners were taken and the whole front collapsed. It was unlikely, but it was his best chance to win the war, since he could throw the victorious armies at the Allies with a vengeance. Given how Hitler gambled with the German army, I'm surprised he didn't.
But wait. The German's worst numbers in a proportional sense were taking place in 1943-1945. In 1941 or 1942, the Russians were losing approximately 5 soldiers for every 1 German. Even at Stalingrad this was the ratio. Yes, the Germans lost, in absolute numbers, more troops and equipment at Stalingrad than anywhere else prior to the isolation of Army Group North in the Baltics in Operation Bagration in 1944. However, the Soviets still lost about 5 soldiers for every German one.
At that ratio, the Soviet Union would be unable to sustain the war. However, due to better equipment (including all the equipment sent by Lend-Lease), by 1943 this ratio went down, such that if the war were a war of attrition, Germany would lose. The Soviets had more planes, more tanks, more mobility and were able to mount offensives in a way they hadn't been able to in 1941 or 1942.
So yes, the Germans were still slaughtering the Russians in disproportionate numbers all the way to Berlin. But the disproportion was one that was still going to end in Germany losing, as it indeed did.
As for Stalin's timing, yes, it was planned well.
You still have Pzkpfw III Ausf. G-N and Pzkpfw IV F-J operating on the Eastern Front at the same time, which is enough variety to give headaches to support crews and factories back in Germany. Of course, those factories were still working under peacetime constraints with respect to shifts and production (production actually went down in 1940 and 1941). I don't think anyone would disagree with Buchanan or Taylor that Germany was unprepared for war in 1939, and equally (more oddly so) unprepared for total war in 1941. By contrast, the Soviets just continually produced the T-34, the T-34, and the T-34. Yes, they introduced new designs as well (like the IS-2, a direct counter to the Tiger), but they varied less and so they still did produce more (even if their figures are inflated, which I don't doubt - I have yet to meet a Soviet statistic that isn't probably a lie).
Not so. The Russians repaired and recovered units fairly well. The ability to repair and recover machines on both sides was in large part due to the momentum of the battle. In the early war, all Russian breakdowns were scrap because the Russians were in headlong retreat. In the later war, the German breakdowns were scrap because they had to be abandoned as the Germans retreated.
You mean 1941, not 1940. Most people who know about the war aren't going to argue that the Soviets traded space for time. It was a propaganda justification for the reality on the ground, which was that the Blitzkrieg tactics, combined with Russian geography, were making it impossible to maintain a good, solid line and as a result enveloping massive amounts of troops. The source of this propaganda is 1812, when Kutuzov did consciously trade space for time and drew Napoleon farther into Russia so he could mass more troops. He still lost his battle (Borodino), but his tactic did materially contribute to Napoleon's failure to subject Russia to his will. But that is a separate discussion.
I think that the assertion that the Germans were equally vulnerable to a Soviet offensive isn't quite accurate, because the Soviets did not have, at least in 1942, the motorization necessary to allow a Blitzkrieg tactic to be employed. The Germans could break their line and exploit the breakthrough, but the Russians, if they broke the German line, could not properly exploit it. They were really only able to do this starting in late 1943. Furthermore, between the Volga and the Dnepr there is a good, solid river that is deep and forms a line of defense - the Don. Operation Little Saturn would almost certainly have failed if von Paulus had moved back to reinforce the line on the Don. Stalin had been able to hold that line very well in 1941.
Mosier points out as well the pattern of military infrastructure development near the frontiers suggested aggressive war, not defensive. For the latter, you build forts and roads and rails that run parallel to the border to facilitate the movement of troops from one trouble spot to the next. For offensive warfare, you build bases, rather than forts, and improve the transport infrastructure leading towards the frontier, to facilitate the movement of troops, reinforcements and supplies behind the advancing army. The Soviets were engaged exclusively in that second variety of construction.
I agree completely. Not only that, but existing Soviet fortifications and defensive positions were actually dismantled in the period between 1939 and June 1941. The "Stalin line" and the "Voroshilov line" were two sets of defensive lines that stretched from the Baltic to the Black Sea and were designed to make it much harder for an enemy to just "roll through". However, they would impede the forward movement of Soviet troops in a westward direction as much as the forward movement of enemy troops in an eastward direction.
That could be an ironic way of referring to the purges of the late thirties you realize - in a certain sense (i.e. 9mm doses), they were, which accounts for a lot of the ineptitude of the Soviet military in the early days (see, for example Finland)when Western observers characterized Soviet military maneuvers in the mid thirties as competently utilizing the latest and most modern equipment and tactics.
It's debatable how much of the Soviet debacle in Finland was due to the purge and how much was due to a bad plan by Voroshilov (who was a terrible strategist; he survived because he was a crony of Stalin's but was removed from all actual military command as a result of Finland). Tukhachevsky's own record is spotty - he's credited with defeating Kolchak and developing a Soviet theory of blitzkrieg, but in both cases he may be taking credit for what others did. On the other side we know that he failed in 1920 against the Polish army because he didn't believe in having a reserve, and his best "successes" were in killing innocent villages of his own people with poison gas during the Tambov uprising. When one looks at Blücher, Uborevich and the others, the pattern repeats itself. One of them (I forget which one) commanded the first conscripts of the Red Army on February 23, 1918. They were instructed to stop the Germans. A couple of weeks later, these "heroes" had to be detained as far away as Samara (thousands of kilometers south and east of the "battle" scene). The Germans had stopped on their own for supply reasons. Despite this, the date is commemorated as "Soviet Army Day" and a legend was forwarded for decades that it was a victory against the Germans. In reality, the soldiers (and their officers, up to the ultimate commander) deserted and fled.
Mosier cites Manstein's memoirs recording Hitler explaining that they needed to divert troops to defend Italy and the Adriatic coast from the Western powers who had just invaded Sicily. Hitler was a bit obsessive about protecting the Romanian oil fields.
I admit that this may be a case of "hindsight is 20/20", but if Hitler had exploited the 1943 breakthrough and broke the Soviet line, he might have been able to recreate the situation in 1941 where mass numbers of prisoners were taken and the whole front collapsed. It was unlikely, but it was his best chance to win the war, since he could throw the victorious armies at the Allies with a vengeance. Given how Hitler gambled with the German army, I'm surprised he didn't.
Not so much as is generally believed. The mythical aspects of Soviet production figures is another area he explores, and that theoretical learning curve of the Soviets is not suggested by casualty figures, as the Germans' worst numbers were in the winter of Stalingrad, while the Russians were horrible all the way through. Right up until Berlin fell, they were still slaughtering the Russians in disproportionate numbers.
But wait. The German's worst numbers in a proportional sense were taking place in 1943-1945. In 1941 or 1942, the Russians were losing approximately 5 soldiers for every 1 German. Even at Stalingrad this was the ratio. Yes, the Germans lost, in absolute numbers, more troops and equipment at Stalingrad than anywhere else prior to the isolation of Army Group North in the Baltics in Operation Bagration in 1944. However, the Soviets still lost about 5 soldiers for every German one.
At that ratio, the Soviet Union would be unable to sustain the war. However, due to better equipment (including all the equipment sent by Lend-Lease), by 1943 this ratio went down, such that if the war were a war of attrition, Germany would lose. The Soviets had more planes, more tanks, more mobility and were able to mount offensives in a way they hadn't been able to in 1941 or 1942.
So yes, the Germans were still slaughtering the Russians in disproportionate numbers all the way to Berlin. But the disproportion was one that was still going to end in Germany losing, as it indeed did.
As for Stalin's timing, yes, it was planned well.
To be fair, I don't believe by the time they were up to the later variants of the Mark 3 they were necessarily operating several different models at once. Those tanks were first designed in the thirties and were practially obsolete then. They needed upgunning desperately, from the original 37mm gun, to the still inadequate 50mm (by war's end, armored cars were mounting guns of that caliber - plainly it was not a proper tank gun) and eventually the 75mm gun that was actually capable of harming an allied tank. At most they were running a couple of variants at any given time, and whatever the logistical difficulties of that scenario, they'd have been exponentially worse if they tried going back to the drawing board and working up a replacement for the PzKpfw III Aus B from scratch. This slip-shod & half-assed tank development is also strongly supportive of the premise of Buchanan (and from what you said, Taylor as well), that Hitler had no real plans for a war at the time it started. It also makes the various claims about Russians replacing their numbers as fast as the Germans could kill them, while the Germans dwindled rapidly from the beginning, somewhat less credible. The Germans lost Mark III, Aus C tanks and replaced them with Mark IV Aus D and Panthers and Tigers and supplemented them with tank destroyers, at first cobbled together from captured Russian guns and Czech tank chassis, and later purpose-built models like the Hetzer and Jagdpanthers that racked up massive kill totals, despite not being permitted to wear the black uniform of a Wehrmacht tanker.
You still have Pzkpfw III Ausf. G-N and Pzkpfw IV F-J operating on the Eastern Front at the same time, which is enough variety to give headaches to support crews and factories back in Germany. Of course, those factories were still working under peacetime constraints with respect to shifts and production (production actually went down in 1940 and 1941). I don't think anyone would disagree with Buchanan or Taylor that Germany was unprepared for war in 1939, and equally (more oddly so) unprepared for total war in 1941. By contrast, the Soviets just continually produced the T-34, the T-34, and the T-34. Yes, they introduced new designs as well (like the IS-2, a direct counter to the Tiger), but they varied less and so they still did produce more (even if their figures are inflated, which I don't doubt - I have yet to meet a Soviet statistic that isn't probably a lie).
A broken down German machine had a good chance of being recovered and repaired. A Russian break-down was scrap, at least until they got American tank recovery vehicles.
Not so. The Russians repaired and recovered units fairly well. The ability to repair and recover machines on both sides was in large part due to the momentum of the battle. In the early war, all Russian breakdowns were scrap because the Russians were in headlong retreat. In the later war, the German breakdowns were scrap because they had to be abandoned as the Germans retreated.
The Soviet "tactic" of trading space for time in 1940 is another myth. They were attacking the entire way, and getting killed or captured in the millions. People allow the Soviet myth of a clever Fabian strategy to stand because the German advance makes them presume an equivalent Soviet retreat. If they did manage retreats, those were still the bloodiest months of the war for them, and you can hardly blame Hitler for worrying about the same thing happening to the Germans. Given the kinds of kills they were racking up, and the lack of defensible terrain and strong points in Eastern Europe, it was not like Normandy, where you simply retreated to the next hedgerow or stone village or hilltop and dig in again to bleed out your enemy some more. Retreating from Stalingrad, for example, probably meant falling back at least to the Dneiper or the Crimean region. Staying in Stalingrad effectively cut the Russians off from any western access. Hence Hitler's refusal to allow retreats is not as irrational or costly as is generally portrayed. Those German production difficulties also translated into logistical issues, which would be exacerbated by moving back and forth all the time.
You mean 1941, not 1940. Most people who know about the war aren't going to argue that the Soviets traded space for time. It was a propaganda justification for the reality on the ground, which was that the Blitzkrieg tactics, combined with Russian geography, were making it impossible to maintain a good, solid line and as a result enveloping massive amounts of troops. The source of this propaganda is 1812, when Kutuzov did consciously trade space for time and drew Napoleon farther into Russia so he could mass more troops. He still lost his battle (Borodino), but his tactic did materially contribute to Napoleon's failure to subject Russia to his will. But that is a separate discussion.
I think that the assertion that the Germans were equally vulnerable to a Soviet offensive isn't quite accurate, because the Soviets did not have, at least in 1942, the motorization necessary to allow a Blitzkrieg tactic to be employed. The Germans could break their line and exploit the breakthrough, but the Russians, if they broke the German line, could not properly exploit it. They were really only able to do this starting in late 1943. Furthermore, between the Volga and the Dnepr there is a good, solid river that is deep and forms a line of defense - the Don. Operation Little Saturn would almost certainly have failed if von Paulus had moved back to reinforce the line on the Don. Stalin had been able to hold that line very well in 1941.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
A.J.P. Taylor, The Origins of the Second World War
11/05/2011 04:55:49 PM
- 1125 Views
Interesting - I'm about two thirds of the way through it at the moment
11/05/2011 05:18:36 PM
- 608 Views
"Great minds think alike" or "Fools seldom differ"?
11/05/2011 08:03:52 PM
- 622 Views
I always fear the latter
12/05/2011 12:12:29 AM
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Ah, this reminds me of the old jokes
12/05/2011 04:58:07 AM
- 615 Views
Italian army rifle for sale...
12/05/2011 10:22:50 AM
- 682 Views
I was forced a few years back in a discussion on wotmania to look into Italy in WW1.
12/05/2011 10:20:29 PM
- 812 Views
Is it an academic work?
11/05/2011 05:23:11 PM
- 581 Views
This is a pain in the ass...
11/05/2011 10:31:09 PM
- 807 Views
I've heard Pat Buchanan talking about his book and wondered about it
11/05/2011 11:16:03 PM
- 723 Views
Re: I've heard Pat Buchanan talking about his book and wondered about it
12/05/2011 12:47:50 PM
- 730 Views
I miss having these sorts of discussions
12/05/2011 03:34:07 PM
- 740 Views