"Treason never prospers, what's the reason? If it prospers, none dare call it treason". - Edit 2
Before modification by Joel at 16/11/2010 11:35:54 PM
With regard to the rest, I think Snoop's comment on the American revolutionaries being traitors was largely tongue in cheek, and you have a point in saying he'd be inconsistent if he were serious. But the others also have a point in insisting that determining when a revolution becomes justified is a subjective matter. There isn't some set objective moment at which revolution becomes morally just.
They were traitors to the Crown - they did rebel against their king which does make them traitors. Of course they won which changes things a lot
But it was really just an illustration of the point that it is subjective, it isn't like saying murder it wrong but rather than saying murder is wrong unless you think they have a bad haircut or ugly shoes in which case it is noble and good.
Given when Mr. Pope lived, I don't think he was speaking of the Colonies. I could go on all day like this; probably the biggest reason the American colonists rebelled was because most of them came from Britain, a country where taxation without representation has been anathema since, what, the Thirteenth Century?
That's the thing though: They were rebels, but while all traitors are rebels, not all rebels are traitors. For all the crap I give ya'll about Charles I, Parliament WAS in the right on policy, had a point. Maybe not a point worth executing ones lawful sovereign, but then, Charles liked to paint them into corners, and I think we can agree that kicking the Stuarts out of Britain was one thing and KEEPING them out quite another. The Glorious Revolution is a lot harder to justify, however, especially to the extent to which it's been lauded from Day One. Deposing a monarch on the basis of what you SUSPECT his heir will do is pretty shady in my book.
The particulars of each rebellion are different, and thus sometimes they are justified, patriotic, and sometimes they are not. Tyrants and despots harm rather than help the nation, and removing them or extricating ones nation from their control is a public service, not treason. Determining whether a given rebellion falls into the category of patriotism or treason is often subjective, I'm not sure it can be otherwise, especially when it's a determination each citizen must make before deciding whose side to take. That the distinction exists isn't subjective at all, IMHO. It's not like saying murder is wrong except in certain cases; it's EXACTLY like saying murder is always wrong, but if someone breaks into your house and tries to kill you, killing THEM isn't murder, it's justifiable homicide.
I can't resist noting in passing that if a memory that can't last eleven days is rather short indeed....