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Re: I know that feeling well. Joel Send a noteboard - 08/02/2011 04:46:07 PM
It seems more like Lebanons Hezbollah exists by the threat of more violence like their seizure of the capital, assassination of the President in concert with Syria (with which we shouldn't confuse Lebanon) and repeated, often successful, attempts to start bloody civil wars between Islamic terrorists and secular authority. So, OK, maybe they have bikinis, but let's not pretend they're some sort of beacon of peaceful secular democracy. Bottom line is an Islamic terrorist group assassinated the secular executive thanks to its decades of aid from supposedly secular Syria and even though that's been proven beyond doubt they STILL managed to take control of the government, not by the "grace" of Christian "allies" but due to their utter exhaustion.

While we're correcting factual errors: Rafiq Hariri was a former PM, having resigned months before his murder, not the president. And Hezbollah was not a factor in the outbreak of the big Lebanese civil war of 1975-1990, as it was only created in the eighties. So I'm not really sure which "successful attempts to start bloody civil wars" you are talking about.

No, Hezbollah was just created in no small part to be the foot soldiers in that war, but I think you can see how easy it is to regard Lebanons government as a mere extension of Syrias. Especially now that they're in charge of it despite proof they were responsible for assassinating a former PM with the aid and at the behest of Syria (sorry about changing "PM" to "President"; since America doesn't have the former I tend to think, President for "chief executive", but it looks like Lebanon has both).
Lebanon is a very complicated country, and hardly anyone has clean hands if you look back at the civil war (for all that people like to blame Sabra and Shatila on Israel, it was the Christian phalangists who did the actual killing). Do stop trying to oversimplify.

It has always seemed like the Phalangists were responsible for most of the things there blamed on Israel, but it's easier to stir up Islamic militants across the Mid-East by presenting Israel as a target than by pointing them at Christians who are a decided minority in most countries other than Lebanon. Frankly, it's also always seemed to me that the Phalangists did more than anyone to incite that war; we just don't talk about it much because 1) it went very badly for them and 2) most Americans were and are very sympathetic to them. No, no ones hands are clean; that's the problem in the Middle East and why I'm reluctant to lend support to anyone. Not only is it morally dubious, but so long as all sides are led by brutal thugs supporters of WHOEVER wins will be largely blamed by the many losers for aiding a thugs victory and preserving their power.
Of course not; it merely aided an Islamic terror groups Presidential assassination as part of years of military occupation in Lebanon (again, it's funny how all the critics of Israeli occupation in Palestine shrug off Syrian occupation of an internationally recognized sovereign state, even when it involves assassinating that states president). If it looks, walks and quacks like a duck....

So it did (well, ignoring your factual errors). Far from me be it to say Syria's regime is a pleasant one. All I'm trying to do here is pointing out how much more complicated the Middle East is than you make it out to be, and how wrong and sometimes dangerous your oversimplified generalizations are.

My solution, at least as regards the West, is to get the hell out so we stop being caught in the crossfire, and if that means we have to get the fossil fuel monkey off our backs it's probably past time we did that anyway, and shouldn't be an excuse for choosing which filth to support in a civil war regardless. I don't see how that increases the danger to anyone, though it would reduce the danger to many. Regarding the Mid-East itself I'm not sure there IS a solution, but if there is they'll have to find it on their own, and as long as the West continues to intervene all it does is provide a convenient scapegoat and the firepower to ensure a high body count.
Sure, they're all occurring in dictatorships, but they aren't occurring in all dictatorships, are they? Just the secular pro-Western ones; apparently Iranians don't mind brutal repression (except for the one police shot in the head a couple years ago for protesting). Sure, some of the protesters are liberal even by Western standards, but don't try to tell me they're the vanguard because we both know better. There's strong reason to believe the MB is simply biding their time until they can take advantage of a power vacuum created by popular uprisings to which they don't mind lending aid since they know they can exploit them later.

You claim not to have forgotten what happened in Iran, but it sure looks like you have. So, once again: the Iranians tried popular uprisings too. As I said, there are a number of reasons why they were less successful than the Tunisians and hopefully the Egyptians.

Yes, they tried popular uprisings, but not in the wake of Tunisias so called Jasmine Revolution. It's not sweeping the region like so many on the left keep insisting, or even sweeping the brutally repressed parts of it (admittedly that's a small distinction). It's sweeping the secular pro-Western parts of the region, and this conceit that installing inevitably theocratic anti-Western governments will foster democracy is inexplicable; if you want to talk about dangerous oversimplification, there it is. Syrias government is in an exception in terms of theocracy, but not in terms of repression, yet inno danger of toppling, Hezbollahs government of Lebanon has only grown stronger in the wake of the protests and despite irrefutable evidence they assassinated a former leaders of the nation, and Iran is seeing none of the resurgent protests Egypt and Tunisia have. No, the governments in the most danger now are Egypt and Jordans. Are they as free as we'd like? Of course not. Are they and the Saudis more free and less plagued by bloodshed than Syria or Iran? That seems hard to dispute. They may not be democratic by our standards, but the bar is somewhat lower in the Middle East, is it not? Forsaking the regimes that are closest to still unrealized democracy because their attempts to combat violently repressive theocratic terrorists and militias prevent them from moving to democracy as fast as we'd like seems ill advised. I'd prefer to wash my hands of the whole mess except for providing non-military primarily humanitarian aid directly to the citizens, though even that would require heavily armed guards for relief workers because even handing out food and drugs is viewed as a provocative hostile act if a Westerner is doing it.
And you'll note I wasn't trying to tell you that they were the vanguard, I was telling you that the majority was as always inbetween the two extremes. Not that you seem to read my posts, I really don't know why I bother...

I read them, I just frequently disagree with the analysis. I hope you're right about Egypts near future, but see little reason to expect it.
The proof is in the pudding; if Tunisia and Egypt form free democratic governments I'll be the first to applaud, but that strikes me as a naïve hope founded on the notion that the US supported Mubarak because we're evil SOBs who like other evil SOBs. The truth is that Mubarak represented the US and many others making the best of a bad situation. If you want to say we had no business supporting any of the various brutal thugs contending for control of a foreign state I'll agree, but the truth is, one reason--IN ADDITION TO geopolitical ones--we did so was because since bloodshed couldn't be prevented supporting Mubarak meant less bloodshed than supporting any of his opponents. I see little real evidence that's changed, just a lot of wishful thinking.

The US supported Mubarak because they could sell him weapons and because he played nice with Israel, knowing full well that he was a SOB repressing his people. Just like they've supported plenty of other SOBs in the past, Saddam among them. I'm not some wide-eyed idealist who thinks an omelette can be made without breaking eggs, but I do think that when you do ugly things for good reasons, you should be man enough to admit you've done ugly things - and to live with the consequences.

If the US restricted aid to only those who weren't repressive SOBs they'd have aided no one, which is probably what we should've done, but Cold War geopolitics gave added weight to energy concerns inseparable from the Suez, which will make Egypt a major player for the foreseeable future. That said, the US could've found other people who'd have been happy to play ball in exchange for aid; they chose Mubarak because he was the LEAST objectionable, in no small part because he was Sadats legal successor and because most of the alternatives were implicated in Sadats assassination. Again, the fact Sadat WAS assassinated and Mubarak nearly was, along with the fact there have been five attempts to kill the latter since, speaks volumes about the kind of government likely to succeed him, as well as helping explain, if not justify, the brutality he's shown toward various opposition groups and protesters. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone's not out to get you. If there's one less that should be taken from US involvement in the Mid-East (and Central America, and Southeast Asia, and Sub-Saharan Africa) it's that if you aid and endorse one side over the other and it turns out to be a bunch of violent repressive thugs, the fact the other side was at least as bad or worse won't exonerate you in the eyes of either the natives nor the world.
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/Media: Guardian's take on funny Americans' take on Egypt - 03/02/2011 09:32:52 PM 1072 Views
I think you should replace "Fox" by "funny Americans". - 03/02/2011 09:44:26 PM 709 Views
Pfft. Synonyms. - 03/02/2011 09:46:42 PM 687 Views
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Re: Pfft. Synonyms. - 03/02/2011 11:46:19 PM 726 Views
I watch/listen to Beck like I watch/listen to The Onion. - 04/02/2011 07:12:41 AM 632 Views
Are people really sure Beck hasnt started drinking again? *NM* - 03/02/2011 10:54:32 PM 310 Views
Mormon crazy Kool-aid is what he's drinking. *NM* - 04/02/2011 02:11:26 AM 284 Views
Yipeeeeee!!! LMAO. *NM* - 04/02/2011 02:34:38 AM 280 Views
I saw Guardian use the phrase balanced coverage and stopped - 04/02/2011 06:20:31 PM 644 Views
You always do this. - 05/02/2011 01:28:11 AM 660 Views
It is the irony I find funny - 07/02/2011 04:03:38 PM 585 Views
That after watching that you think the GUARDIAN'S the one over the top here? - 08/02/2011 04:02:04 PM 530 Views
sorry the Guardian is shit - 08/02/2011 04:21:09 PM 611 Views
Maybe, but I'll need evidence; regardless, that's not what this is about, is it? - 08/02/2011 04:48:06 PM 623 Views
I will buy they are both worthless - 08/02/2011 05:20:50 PM 735 Views
Oh, is Beck a "socialism fan favor[ing] the violent dicator since he can bring order and subsidies"? - 05/02/2011 08:04:17 AM 772 Views
So you are saying you have a lot in common with Glen Beck? - 07/02/2011 04:04:41 PM 716 Views
Not really. - 08/02/2011 03:46:10 PM 685 Views
it is easy to understand why Beck wants to defend Mubarak - 08/02/2011 04:23:11 PM 2082 Views
It fits his script. - 08/02/2011 04:47:05 PM 581 Views
really? can you back that statement up? - 08/02/2011 05:21:39 PM 551 Views
Glen Beck is my favorite! - 05/02/2011 07:00:28 AM 644 Views
Did find this linked article at your link interesting: - 05/02/2011 09:02:44 AM 844 Views
Here's a link for you - 05/02/2011 06:28:42 PM 895 Views
Interesting comparisons. - 06/02/2011 12:45:29 AM 792 Views
Been over all of this before, so I'll just point out that Lebanon is not Syria. *NM* - 05/02/2011 07:20:10 PM 333 Views
Oops.... - 06/02/2011 12:03:27 AM 754 Views
Gah. "Someone is wrong on the internet!", and all that, and I can't resist. - 06/02/2011 12:34:59 AM 760 Views
I know that feeling well. - 06/02/2011 01:50:41 AM 624 Views
Re: I know that feeling well. - 06/02/2011 02:15:20 AM 788 Views
Re: I know that feeling well. - 08/02/2011 04:46:07 PM 704 Views

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