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Your welcome, its an interesting subject Isaac Send a noteboard - 12/07/2013 03:54:31 AM

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View original postNo, the next big thing in western food culture should be whatever the price vs preference dynamic spawns. We've attmepted on several occasions to steer people towards a given food or away from one and it hans't worked out well.


View original postOK. Still, creating incentives like the EU’s 3 million euro research grant is not steering, it's just people trying to explore new possibilities. If something neat comes out of that, cool. But I’m sure I’m more comfortable with the nanny state mentality than you are, anyways.

That wasn't really what I was getting at, though I'd point out that creating incentives for a behavior is steering, that's pretty much the #1 preferred way of steering behavior. I was getting at what you say right below, that the government tends to have a less than impressive track record on such things, though admittedly I don't think its always very ethical for them to try their hand at it either, even if they had a better record.


View original postIn theory, I have nothing against the government trying to steer people’s consumer habits to a healthier direction in a reasonable manner. In practice, the results just tend to be unreasonable, ironic and ridiculous. But what can you do with the food industry lobbing and lawmakers getting stupid notions.


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View original postYou don't. They've been available as food, and eaten by some out of necessity or dare, long before we learned to domesticate animals or sow crops. They've rarely caught on, even in times and places where starvation was rampant, in part because it takes a lot of energy to harvest and consume a bug in terms of calories produced. People have been pushing it a lot of late, claiming it - without real evidence - as a more economical food source. It isn't. There are any number of plants or algae which produce protein cheaper and can be processed into a nourishing and appealing food source as easily if not more so. If people choose to eat bugs then so be it, but most I think would prefer to be vegetarians eating existing or GMO high protein plants or algae then bug eaters, which is preferable anyway.


View original postThe availability is one reason why insects are used for food in the global south, since warmer climate = more insects. I couldn’t find much info on the costs of farming, though, except that growing mealworms for chicken feed is 4,8 times more expensive than the production of ordinary chicken feed. Crickets are reared for human consumption in Vietnam and Thailand.

This is essentially the core of the problem. Humans run on power, specifically about 100 watts, or the energy a given foot or two of land receives from the sun, essentially parallel to your own cross-section as a biped. To fuel that, hunter-gather style, required around a square mile, around ten million times as much sunlight power as derived human power.We've gotten much better. That 4.8 value is presumably the Feed Conversion Ratio, or FCR, the amount of calories we need to cram into something to get a calorie out. 4.8 isn't an impressive figure, chickens are typically listed as a 2, pigs 3-ish, fish anywhere form mid-1 up to 3. Numbers are often highly variable and debatable, for instance I've seen beef listed as low as 4 and as high as 16. Problem is a FCR can often be confusing because the 3000 calories fed to a pig, for instance, to get 1000 calories, aren't necessarily 3000 calories you or I could eat, or would wish to eat. We feed a lot of edible, or partially edible, food to animals because these days its easier for us to grow a crop and harvest it to feed to them then let them graze it, especially since most livestock only harvest about half the available food in a pasture while trampling, pulverizing, and shitting on the rest. Ideally, when 'ideal' is maximum calories per acre rather than maximum calories per dollar, you grow crops that have a human edible component and an inedible component and feed that inedible component to a creature which can get the best (lowest) FCR off it. Currently we use very little of our land for crops though, especially in efficient western countries, and that means often that its just cheaper (more efficient) to let them graze on their own or to crow crops and feed them the entire things, human edible included, rather than remove the edible and feed animals the inedible in a lot rather than a pasture.

On meat versus plants though it is a no brainer, and the same would apply to insects, animals are middle-men, they jack up the price of food a great deal. But if the plant being grown has components that are otherwise useless to us then FCR represents a false dichotomy.


View original postCan’t see why both options (insects and algae) couldn’t be advanced simultaneously. And with a nice publicity campaign, good marketing strategy and careful sensory evaluations to come up with the most acceptable dishes.. sure you could make bugs seem appetizing, to some people at least. They'd be a niche market, but still a viable idea.. Some people would eat shit if you shoveled it into a nice package and told them it was good for them.

"Bugs, its what's for dinner"?? Well I don't object to researching multiple paths at once, that's generally my preference. I never put it past businesses to make even the most idiotic of things seem a good idea, hence the existence of the pink flamingo yard ornament, but I also never put it past people to freak out over perfectly safe stuff, like nuclear power and vaccination.


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View original postNo. Unless we radically alter human energy intake methods we will continue to have plants which produce parts of themselves which humans can not digest but other creatures can, and further we are not far off from being able to economically grow meat minus an attached brain. We are far more likely to see algae crops, current or GMO ones, as the protein crop then insects, it is blatantly superior economically and far more appealing to people, very few of whom would object to a shake or food made of processed algae more than a more expensive one made of processed bugs.


View original postIf the options are insects, lab grown meat and lab grown algae.. None of them sound terribly appetizing. I’d also be interested in how this affects our perceptions about food from a social sciences point of view, i.e. food as something more than just nourishment (traditions, friends and family, food as expression of one’s personality, etc.)

I wouldn't know why, there's no 'yuck factor' on algae I'm familiar with, certainly not on a creepy-crawly level. They certainly don't care if you use it as animal feed. Kelp isn't a huge part of the western diet but its certainly available and I've never seen any react with disgust at the concept of eating it. As to lab grown meat, that's very wait and see, its too new and too R&D phase to deal with. I doubt most people would object to finding out their steak was grown in sterile, clean, meat-growth facility. It's all image and marketing though, one could make them appear as shops of horror contrasted to scenes of prisitne pasture and happy cows grazing, alternatively one could contrast screaming animals being slaughtered in filthy conditions to sterile white labs with no pain and suffering and loss of cute mammal life attached. But algae? No, people don't care, its already in the accepted direct human diet and nobody cares of their cow was eating kelp rather than corn, unless it effected the taste.


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View original postChicken, they routinely eat grubs, and we eat chicken. That's part of polyculture, you derive your meat as food that's a byproduct or underutilized niche of your primary growth method. If there are things that humans can not eat, or prefer not to eat, which can be produced, you feed them to things without that limitation and eat them. This concept of bugs as a food source is yet another of the weird notions spawned by the flawed thinking of not realizing that we already produce food in the most economical method based on available resources. We don't grow less plants because people want meat, we grow as much plants as we can economically sell and use a small portion of the remaining land for livestock. In many cases we have excess land on which it is more economical to grow corn to feed to animals then it is to use as grazing land. We don't optimize for human calories per acre because there are 30 billion acres of land on this planet and we can grow a hell of lot more than 800,000 calories per acre a year (how much a person needs a year) of which there are only 7 billion. These calorie crises often border on pseudo-science, and more often jump into it entirely. It can easily be demonstrated that through available technology a far higher population can be comfortably supported, we simply do not have that population need and the places suffering from alleged 'over population' merely suffer from internal strife and corruption preventing proper infrastructure and land management able to handle the matter. As long as a civilization can produce 2000 calories of food for significantly less than a day of labor a higher population can be supported and the most economically viable methods and crops will be used, rather than the most rawly efficient in terms of Calories per acre. If people develop a taste for bugs, then it will become economically viable, and attend to itself without encouragement.


View original postVery interesting. I’m trying to come up with a word that describes the belle époque worldview that science will solve all the worlds problems.

"Proven track record of success", maybe?


Can’t come up with it now, it’s “development faith” in my language. I believe your cold hard fact that we can produce enough energy and protein to feed every person and more but from a practical point of view it’s not very comforting since people will continue to die and waste away because of undernourishment for countless years to come. All the while we are getting more and more obese and inflicting that on the developing world, too.

Well, I am comforted that more people die every year, on account of there being so many more people living. The average lifespan, even in the under-developed nations, continues to rise, as does the standard of living even during this economic rough patch, even as the population continues to grow, though it would be nice if more of that growth occurred in the west rather than the poorer nations. People tend to forget, partially because we don't mention it much, that most of these 'starving nations' actually have a smaller percentage of people starving then they used to while having twice as many people. Their suffering though comes entirely from their unstable environment making development and investment hard. Any nation able to convince investors that they are likely to be stable for a while can get a flood of investment capital. The issue is that a bank would love to loan someone $10,000 for a tractor in Krapistan if its stable, because they know it will pay huge dividends an the loan can be repaid at a nice interest rate. Their problem though is 1) There's a very real chance that guys neighbors will kill him, burn his farm, and steal or destroy his tractor and 2) A bank doesn't want to fly someone out to Krapistan, ride a mule wagon to a village, and make a $10,000 loan, and they don't trust the local gov't and 'banks' to take that money and not imbezzle the hell out of it, if they loan them a a hundred million to make 10,000 such $10,000 loans. Its not a profit issue, they know they make huge profits on such basic investments, if they can actually get the money to the person and they can operate without lots of chaos.


View original postBtw, what is your opinion on eating meat, then? Do you agree with the people who say that the only ethical and sustainable solution is for the developed world to go vegan or do you think that we actually can afford to consume meat in greater quantities still?

Personally? I enjoy and consume meat, but prefer less of it then most Americans as a percentage of my diet, my older sister and I were raised as 'mostly' vegetarians, but it didn't stick very well on me and barely at all on her. In terms of ethics, I don't think higher meat consumption is much to be worried about. Vegetarian for ethical reasons of killing a thinking creature, or consuming less meat for health or economic reasons, or simply not liking meat, those are all fine by me. Encouraging others not to though starts getting into the territory of what I normal dub 'Malthusian Cultists', who are people I generally feel are guilty of technophobia, especially if they advocate we actually decrease the human population, in which case I consider them guilty of inciting mass murder.

More broadly though, the meat vs plant argument will inevitably lead to maximizing resource efficiency in general, and that has a very dark zone when explored, even without getting very sci-fi-ey. Its also where a lot these so-called rational sorts prove they're more cult then scientist. Consider strawberries, you here complaints about beef and meat in general, but never strawberries. 10,000 pounds per acre is a very good yield for them. However, not only do they require absurd amounts of labor compared to meat or cereals - labor which burns many calories - but a strawberry only has about 150 calories a pound. So that's an annual yield of about 1.5 million calories an acre, very low by modern agricultural standards. And that without even factoring in all those calories burned picking the stuff, which is huge compared to something like corn or beef. A 10,000 pound/acre strawberry harvest generates about 2 man-years of food, a 160 bushel/acre corn harvest produces 20 man-years and does so with an entire order of magnitude less labor, and indeed you'll get more meat calories then strawberry and still with less labor. Yet no one complains of them, and strawberries aren't even a bad crop as these things go.It like people who encourage others to ride a bike or walk to work, not realizing that the person will burn up more fossil fuels in terms of the food they ate then just driving a car. Riding a bike to work for the exercise and fun is a different story, much like eating healthier foods you also enjoy.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
This message last edited by Isaac on 12/07/2013 at 03:58:58 AM
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Would you eat insects? - 10/07/2013 08:19:55 PM 917 Views
Possibly? - 10/07/2013 08:50:56 PM 776 Views
Re: Possibly? - 11/07/2013 09:19:18 PM 592 Views
No, but I'm picky. - 10/07/2013 08:52:11 PM 656 Views
Also, this post makes me wish eatbugs was still around. *NM* - 10/07/2013 08:53:34 PM 299 Views
Re: No, but I'm picky. - 10/07/2013 08:54:14 PM 607 Views
Your cerebral cortex has probably glitched. - 10/07/2013 09:08:20 PM 662 Views
I had a red ant and a lady bug once. - 10/07/2013 09:10:53 PM 674 Views
Sure, why not? I'm not prejudiced. *NM* - 10/07/2013 10:59:12 PM 303 Views
It's really a marketing problem is all it is. - 11/07/2013 12:10:54 AM 886 Views
The sad part is ... - 11/07/2013 03:04:37 AM 594 Views
Been there, done that. - 11/07/2013 01:26:30 AM 689 Views
I doubt it will really come up - 11/07/2013 02:20:50 AM 624 Views
Thank you for this response. Very interesting. - 11/07/2013 09:09:24 PM 637 Views
Your welcome, its an interesting subject - 12/07/2013 03:54:31 AM 576 Views
Re: Your welcome, its an interesting subject - 12/07/2013 02:56:22 PM 535 Views
Re: Your welcome, its an interesting subject - 12/07/2013 04:46:53 PM 624 Views
Mmm, they taste like chicken, Timon! - 11/07/2013 04:24:56 AM 600 Views
Sure why not? Some, at least - 11/07/2013 12:18:16 PM 576 Views
I have. They were OK. There's a reason we don't eat them - 11/07/2013 06:19:32 PM 667 Views
I mean, I'm from Louisiana, so we already pretty much do. - 11/07/2013 09:41:11 PM 574 Views
How? Sautéed with garlic and olive oil, everything is yummy. *NM* - 13/07/2013 01:21:44 PM 301 Views

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