Active Users:292 Time:17/05/2024 04:31:03 PM
Thermodynamics only applies to the concrete, not the abstract - Edit 2

Before modification by Joel at 17/06/2015 10:07:41 AM

That is fascinating in itself, because it means truly elementary particles can exert no force except by direct contact through momentum: They possess no component particles to carry any other force. Aaaand this is why our deuling tangents are hard on other members.


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Crusaders were curbstomped by Arabs for centuries largely becuase they kept advancing science and technology unimpeded by pseudo-religious traditions that prompted Crusaders to burn anyone caught with "heretical" Arab scientific works. By the Enlightenment, the shoe was on the other foot; Europe overcame dogmatic resistance and pushed the scientific envelope while Arabs condemned any discoveries threatening the status quo—and suddenly Europe went from being (literal) Arab cannon fodder to colonial masters of the world: Including the Muslim Mideast and North Africa. Children taught to deny biology at the dawn of genetic engineering will not "run into difficulties later in life when they start making their own world" because THEY WILL NOT MAKE THEIR WORLD: Intelligent educated people will, as they always have.

People run around dismissing our sinking shorelines because of Genesis says God promised to never again flood the world (though it does not say WE would not.) We are still "running into difficulties" THIRTY YEARS LATER because a US Interior Secy. declared our ability to forcibly SEIZE Mideast oil the modern equivalent of your beloved "Deus vult!"

But it's not. All you have done is exposed the lie behind your facade of tolerance for religious belief, because you are tacitly denying the validity of people's beliefs. Not the accuracy of their beliefs, but the fact that they ACTUALLY DO believe that.

First off, LYING requires not only stating a falsehood but KNOWINGLY with deceptive INTENT, which has not been demonstrated, because I 1) did not deny anyone believes anything (so THAT statement is false,) 2) therefore COULD NOT have KNOWN my truthful statements false and 3) showed no deceptive INTENT even were the first and second criteria met (instead of refuted.) I am not perfect and my past has shameful moments, but gave up lying long before joining wotmania. Apart from the moral dimension, I value my integrity too highly to sacrifice it, let alone for something so cheap as scoring cheap easily disproven internet debate points.

The VALIDITY of fanatic fundamentalist beliefs is precisely what I deny, because they are demonstrably false, self-serving and continue inflicting incalculable harm both on themselves and many others. I am all too keenly aware they are sincere in noncredible disastrously destructive errors—and that their sincerely false beliefs have caused multiple existential crises for all life on Earth. The selfishly deceitful can be open to reason and incentives; honest fanatics never are. The Falls lesson is two-fold: That God gave us free will, and that His gift includes the consequences of how we use it.


View original postA point I made numerous times on the WoTMB is that the ultimate temporal religious authority doing something does not make it okay for everyone else to do it. The Church's role in medieval society was justified to the extent that it was, because they possessed divine authority, apostolic succession from the men ordained by God to teach His truths, and actual theological power. For the White Tower to attempt to hold the same role, without possessing, or even claiming to possess those things is not remotely just as acceptable. Especially for a Roman Catholic, which was a point you seemed to miss when you cited the former as an example of why the latter is so.

I confess not seeing the link between this and the rest of the discussion, but do not mind turning an apparent non sequitur into a tangent:

1) Aes Sedai channeled the very ESSENCE of the Creator; what greater divine authority is possible in Randland? The original Aes Sedai were the SOLE authority of ANY kind, which those surviving the Breaking remained.

2) Those CHANNELING THE CREATOR HIMSELF then established training standards for all potential successors, promoting only those who passed a graduated series of competency tests, and admitting only candidates who also CHANNELED THE CREATOR HIMSELF (itself partly due to blood descent from those likewise gifted and partly by some divinely imbued "X factor.")

3) Said training included ALL of Randlands SOLE theology, by design of those supposedly wholly ignorant of the mandatory catechism classes they TAUGHT. “C’mon, Cannoli,” the WT was the SOLE reason any of humanity even knew about the DARK ONE or LAST BATTLE (let alone any deeper theology) after the Breaking; how much of that makes it through the Trolloc Wars and survives another 2000 years without the WT? The Karaethon Cycle—written in the Old Tongue known only to aristocrats and academics even WITH the WTs constant efforts to preserve knowledge? Absent the WTs desperate final attempt to collect and preserve remaining knowledge despite being in the midst of the Breaking eradicating civilization, humanity would have been reduced to Bronze Age nomads with little knowledge of theology or anything else.

The WT explicitly claimed all the stated criteria of authority, mainly because it DID possess each one. If Jordans feminist caricature of the Roman Catholic Church is as unpalatable as (because of...?) Egwene and the rest of his "agender," that is not entirely (nor even primarily) his fault. His Manicheanism is not exactly right out of a papal bull (at least not an approving one.) There is always Goodkinds Objectivist polemic for those who loathe government and its mewling do-gooders, who coddle the weak by enabling their survival like some kind of (GASP!) public servants.


View original postAs far as Muslim "curbstomping" goes, they hammered on first the decadent moderates who kept making heretical compromises with the Faith such as the monophysites, manicheans, monothelites, arians, nestorians and the like. It was the stubborn intolerant old Westerners who stopped the advance at Tours, and refused to be conquered in Asturias. And it was Christian science that cooked the Arab navy at Constantinople. In subsequent years, the Muslims (mostly Turkish nomads) advanced against the most advanced and educated city in Christendom, while the descendants of "thirty barbarians squatting on a rock" advanced against the urbane and sophisticated society of Al-Andalus. The Crusaders got "curbstomped" at the far end of an extremely long logistics train, and because their leaders kept being diverted by worldly goals like taking over Antioch. Aside from that, the only really one-sided Islamic dominance took place in the Balkans, the intellectual & cultural backwater of Christendom, the Appalachians of Europe. And, again, it was the Turks doing all that, not the Arabs, who shot their bolt centuries before.

The Carolingians last desperate stand to defend Europe would never have been needed had Arab conquerors not ALREADY poured into Europe the long way around, blitzkrieging over and through HALF OF CATHOLIC EUROPE IN JUST TWENTY YEARS. Even Charles Martel and Charlemagne needed 70 years just to push them back to they Pyrennes, after which it took 700 years to push them back into Africa. Only the Arabs OWN long supply lines prevented them finishing the job DESPITE the Franks brief resurgence, all while Constantinoples "decadent heretics" prevented Arab conquest of Asia Minor for another two centuries. That is, it took the Arabs 10X longer to seize a subcontinent from “decadent heretics” than to seize all but the German and northern Italian parts of Catholic Europe.

Speaking of "heresy," neither Jesus nor His original disciples had a filioque, and the only Old or New Testament references to anything like venerating righteous mortals or using relics like angreals is consistent condemnation of both as idolatry, so maybe let he who is without heresy cast the first stone. It was the science of those "decadent heretics" that cooked the Arab navy; CATHOLIC Christianity was so far behind that the secret of Greek fire died with Constantinople—which "decadent heretical" science resisted for centuries before the worlds first cannon overwhelmed it. Even cannon might not have sufficed against the Earths strongest defences had the city and neighboring garrisons not been permanently and fatally crippled when Catholic Europe arrived to "aid" defenses, realized the Turks hopelessly outmatched them, tried to extort their "allies" emperor on his own throne, then looted, pillaged and slaughtered their way out of the city when he refused. Kind of a mixed bag: All the looted "decadent heresies" (i.e. a millennium or two of cultural and scientific progress) carried back to Europe sparked a Renaissance that raised Europe from "the Pope orders you burned alive for saying the Earth moves; DEUS VULT!" to something resembling modern civilization; on the other hand, it left NOTHING in the path of invaders who advanced all the way to Vienna before finally halted a century later, and that advance was not REVERSED until the Enlightenment two centuries later.

"C'mon, Cannoli." Arabs needed barely 20 years to do what Europes barbarians needed EIGHT CENTURIES to undo: Cross Gibraltar, conquer Spain and drive within a days march of the English Channel and Rhine before Martel saved Europe from extinction. That earned all of 70 years respite before 700 years of Islam savaging all of Christendom resumed, effectively opposed by none but the "decadent heretic" Byzantine heretics who held out for a millennium before Europes saintly Roman Catholics stuck a knife in their backs and left them lying in a pool of their own blood as Turkish cannon arrived. It took more Arab time and effort to conquer a few distant Byzantine outposts in North Africa than to subsequently conquer most of Catholic Europe, and Constantinople would have indefinitely endured by virtue of its preeminent technology and engineering had it not naïvely allowed "righteously treacherous" barbarian Catholic murderers behind its impregnable walls.

One thing is sure: Vatican insistence (pagan) Aristotle permanently defined science before Christs birth did not finally save Europe from Arab (nor Turkish) conquest: Renaissance science did, even with all of Europe divided by intellectual and religous rebellions against absolute Catholic authority. And when gunboat diplomacy brought North African and Mideastern mullash European colonialism a few centuries later, it fired artillery shells, not encylicals.


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As rising populations and production strain Earths finite resources, the stalled US space program can never begin mining asteroids if we teach kids God created the rays of stars a million lightyears distant in situ 6000 years ago just to test our faith.
The idea that we're going to run out of that stuff is kind of arrogant, and scientifically suspect. An economist made a bet with Paul Ehrlich that the reserves of any ten natural resources Ehrlich cared to name would INCREASE over the coming decade, rather than be depleted. He won. Pseudo science points out how much of the Earth's surface is covered by water to indicate the inevitability of running out of resources. Sane people know that we get most natural resources from UNDER the surface, and that this ball of rock is so enormous we can barely tell it's a ball from here. To go out in extremely hazardous and expensive conditions to dig into much smaller pieces of rock is kind of ludicrous.

Sane people know finite resources are just that, and that human population has been growing at an exponential rate for some time. There are roughly TWICE as many humans now as when I was born, and I am no pensioner. It is inconsistent to assume (in defiance of observed fact) the Earths resources too vast for depletion by 7 billion members of one large species (plus livestock) yet ALSO assume far larger extinct species left enough biomass that millions of years of compression provided an inexhaustible energy source. That is trying to drown us now anyway. As for "extremely hazardous expensive conditions," ever spent time drilling for oil or mining? It is not just arrogance but hubris to believe one can do whatever one wishes with no consequences: Koros—>Hubris—>Ate—>Nemesis; those seeking “decadence” need look no further.


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Believing falsehood is nearly always hobbling, falsehoods about the physical worlds "fundamental" nature especially so. Atop the central tower at a liberal indoctrination center I briefly attended is some seditious Marxists declaration that "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
The CIA?

Nope
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Scientific and other ignorance may not NOTICEABLY affect those lacking even indirect contact with the outside world, but right wing globalism is hellbent on proving holism despite conservative denial. The moment willfully backward people come into contact (and inevitable conflict) with others advanced enough to kill them with pinpoint accuracy by remote control from another continent, their "life" immediately becomes QUITE "difficult."
In theory. In reality, "three hundred pounds per annum spent/On making brain and body meeter/For all the murderous intent/Compromised in villainous saltpeter...No proposition Euclid wrote/No formulae the text-books know/Will turn the bullet from your coat/Or ward the tulwar's downward blow"

Kevlar stops bullets just fine; nothing stops progress. For that matter, plate mail stopped the blows of tulwars and most other blades—then someone discovered it longbows launched arrows with more concentrated force than plate could stop, and things suddenly changed. THEN someone else discovered gunpowder concentrated just as much force without needing to years to train and drill archers nor apply torque to their backs to such a degree it permanently warped their spines. NOW science allows remote control killing of soldiers at NO risk from whatever inferior weapons they may bear. TOMORROW….

Think science will graciously stop advancing just because we foolishly think possessing the most advanced (current) weapons obviates pursuing new ones when they threaten the words men put in Gods mouth? Unlikely, if only because of Gods a stated documented dislike of being libeled. He gave us brains and wills, and probably not just to test our faith by forbidding their use (or having mere mortals do so in His name.)


View original postRobert Jordan did not have primitive ignoramuses repeatedly defeat the Forsaken, products of the epitome of education and scientific knowledge because he was an fundamentalist Bible-thumper, but because he probably had observed enough of the world to see that's how it goes. Shallow idiots who major in creative writing think education wins wars. People who read history like George RR Martin, Robert Jordan, Robert Howard, JRR Tolkien and Frank Herbert tend to write books where the barbarians win. Practical experience makes the Modern Major General a figure of derision and parody, instead of the ideal of education.

Technology wins wars. So does will and experience, but professional soldiers invariably have the first and those who survive a wars commencement have or gain the second: When one army meets another with roughly equal determination, experience and size but vastly superior weaponry, its next meeting is with St. Peter. Vietnam proved technology no substitute for commitment, but the eventual victor spent lives at a 10:1 ratio for decades making the case. Ask the Zulus or Indians (either kind) technologys military importance. Ask the Germans what happened to their horrifically superior weapons once ignorant dogma inspired the hubris of purging "Jewish science."

We are not talking generic effete academics (though imaginations loss one place tends to mute it in others) nor even social science, but natural science.


View original postAll of your diatribe on science is not too far off...but you are dogmatically assuming that YOUR vision of science is going to be the accurate and successful one. In all the objections and criticisms regarding global warming, I have NEVER heard the one about God promising never to flood the world, and had I the opportunity to think about it for half a second, I'd probably have offered your exact retort out of pure contrariness. But then, I make it a point not to listen to the exact sort of people who would say stuff like that, assuming they exist outside of liberal masturbation fantasies where they serve as strawman opponents.

I confess finding it odd you have never heard anyone cite Gods postdeluvian pledge as a rebuttal of observed global warming. But surely you have heard a few fundamentalists cite Revelation to “rebut” any or all our self-inflicted existential crises? I can assure you from bitter personal experience that that is a stock "argument:" We are INCAPABLE of destroying ourselves because God promised to eventually do it for us, and "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Presumably they also leave town each time they defecate, since He also said THAT in Leviticus. Not that I doubt Revelations validity, but SO much of it is SO metaphorical I do not hang my hat on any particular interpretation of it; I sure as Hell would not bet all terrestrial life on it.

I assume nothing but that we should explore all options while following where the best available observation and logic lead us. If it backtracks or takes a new course (and you are right science often does both; all mortal creations are fallible, so any unable/willing to accept correction are next to useless) fine. Science also requires we (to quote a popular traitor) "trust, but verify." But the only thing more foolish than ASSUMING a conclusion accurate based on its knowledgeable experienced source is assuming it INACCURATE for the same reason. I am as contrarian as the next man (well, maybe not in THIS case) but there is a grave difference between being sceptical and being purblind.


View original postI'm curious how someone who seems to believe that profits are evil because he thinks commerce is a zero-sum game can possibly believe that improving the capabilities of ignorant people can redound to the benefits of the rest of us. Zero-sum game means that if your view of the difficulties that result from ignorance is true, the rest of us will have less trouble from them.

For the same reason teachers do not refuse to teach lest they lose their knowledge; ever seen a banker eagerly give MONEY to anyone and everyone who asks? Knowledge can be shared without loss; it is hardly a zero-sum game. If two people have a dollar and one gives theirs to the other, one has two and the other none, but if one of them teaches the other 1+1=2 they BOTH know it.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to physics, which definitely includes industrial and other machines, but only negligibly applies to thought. Maybe concentration, observation and consideration take more energy than doing nothing, but far less than, say, pushing a plow because no one ever interrupted their manual labor long enough to realize putting it on motorized wheels accomplishes just as much with far less friction (and thus energy.) If anything, the Law of Entropy argues for MORE education, because innovation not only improves labor efficiency, but thinkers consume and expend far less energy than laborers. A popular theory holds Americas rising obesity is partly due continuing a traditional "farmers diet" even though more and more people sit at desks 8 hrs/day, 5 days/week instead of digging a field 12 hrs/day, 6 days/week. Ever seen a fat field hand?

Yet despite "free" trade frauds and futurist fantasies, there never has and probably never will be a society so prosperous it could afford to pay most of its people just to sit around thinking: Rather than just inventing and discovering them, someone must also PRODUCE food, clothing, shelter, medicine etc. Someone (educated in the means) must also apply and employ each new device that improves our lives, else they improve nothing. And doing all those things consumes a certain amount of our finite material and energy resources, if only to keep laborers upright. Entropy means THAT exchange of resources is not EVEN a zero-sum game. The act of education falls in that category too, so it should be as efficient as possible, but one person learning something does not PREVENT anyone else learning it the way drinking water, eating bread, gaining a dollar, owning a car or occupying a house does.


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