Active Users:356 Time:06/07/2025 08:12:21 AM
See, these are tyranny, because the cops picked the fights. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/07/2015 02:09:21 PM

Unlike ANY of your examples, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Rodney King, Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown were all hurt or killed in public, and most of them picked the fight themselves. Rice is totally innocent by virtue of his age, but even pointing a fake gun, in a day when people get in trouble for gun-finger gestures, is asking for trouble. Garner stupidly tried to fight off the cops who tried to arrest him, as if holding his hands out of reach would make them quit or go home. The only intelligent thought that might have been going on there might have been an intention to provoke a public overreaction to get his case thrown out or even a settlement, which would not be a half bad idea, if you have the cardio-pulmonary fitness to survive it. Meanwhile, King did attack the cops, who were backing up a couple of traffic officers who called for assistance on a flagrant moving violation. While I tend to be a bit more objective about such things, as a non-driver, I defy the rest of you to honestly say that in the moment when you are cut off by a guy doing 100 mph, you wouldn't smile at the sight of him getting hauled out of his car and cuffed face down on the pavement. There is also strong evidence that Martin and Brown first assaulted and physically harmed the men who shot them.


And its corollary "Everyone from sleeping children to geriatric invalids can easily overpower people held to strict physical fitness standards, trained to not only defend themselves but SUBDUE OTHERS and armed with at LEAST two of their own forms of lethal force." Some recent examples:
I am on your side on all three of the examples you give (I actually referenced the third in another post on this thread), but the superior ability of one party in a fight does not justify his opponent, and restrict his right to win.
1) Cops serving a warrant burst into a NEIGHBORS home, opened fire and instantly killed a girl sleeping in her grandmothers arms; the parents understandably burst in on hearing the shots, so cops pinned the father face down in the rapidly growing blood pool of his daughters blood beside her corpse, cuffed and arrested him,
Not to defend their prior actions, but this was probably, for certain values of right, the right thing to do, because it DE-escalated the situation. This was not an argument or discussion that would have served any purpose, and could potentially lead to more loss of life. The blood pool is an irrelevant emotional detail that does not mitigate or multiply the actual guilt of the actions. And sorry, but however useful such emotional details are in winning arguments and getting changes, they only contribute to the propensity you have been deploring in this thread, for people to pick one side and plant their flag there.
then forced the mother to sit amid her dead daughters gore on the couch for several hours during interrogation before arresting her too. In the interim, cops got a judge to RETROACTIVELY add the house to the warrant, and later excused themselves by claiming the grandmother grabbed the barrel of a gun a cop had already drawn gun (even if true, wtf was she supposed to do when a crowd of men broke into her home pointing guns at her and her grandchild?)

Well, chalk up another win for public unions. These men should not be cops, and possibly not even alive. Without unions, union reps and contracts to protect them from the consequences, and emotional responses like "this cop I work with made an honest mistake that could have happened to me, and punishing him won't bring this stranger back to life so..." Also, serving warrants is doing the courts' dirty work. Does anyone honestly expect a judge to walk back his initial command, much less take responsibility for his role in the process? The cops protect their tribe, the judges protect theirs, and when they overlap, getting justice against those tribes is an impossible fight. Much better to neuter them in the first place.


2) In my moms tiny town of 1400, cops from another town served a warrant issued for an address in yet a THIRD town (i.e. both the residence on the warrant and that searched were out of the cops' jurisdiction,) jumped an elderly couples fence and, on noticing their dog in the yard, immediately shot it per the standard "on arrival immediately disarm suspects of all weapons, in the case of dog-weapons, by execution."
Yet another systemic flaw, in that procedures, policies and precedents intended to protect police who raid a gangster's lair from animal cruelty charges because they defended themselves against the criminal's attack dobermans, are applied to justify jackassery. But if you can't apply common sense to such differences in actual situations, maybe it's time to rethink the system.
3) Cops serving a warrant blindly tossed a flash grenade without bothering to even LOOK where they were throwing it: The playpen of a one-year-old baby the cops nearly killed. A jury refused to indict them for any crime though, just as no cop nor anyone else is paying the $1 million medical fees to save the babys life and put his face and chest back together again. The family can probably afford it though; it is not as if they were only there in the first place because relatives took them in after they lost their own house in a fire. At least no one is "giving" them that $1 million and calling it justice, right?

Only ONE family was black, but does it MATTER which? Apparently, because only members of the respective victims races raised Hell about them. When victims are white conservatives scream, "TYRANNY!" but liberals are mute; when victims are black liberals scream "BRUTALITY!" but conservatives are mute (or worse, defend the latest Ruby Ridge.) We can all keep doing that until murderers with badges put every last one of us in nicely segregated cemetaries, but rather than dividing against each other to AID a common threat, unifying AGAINST it would make far more sense.



Those sleeping children and that family pet were surely "threats" though, and LETHAL ones, since ONLY lethal threats legally justify lethal force.

But the cops are really just weapons themselves. The people who bring it to bear are the ones who set out the laws and dictate a law enforcement response. If you are going to pass a law, you should consider the moral issue of whether or not the end you hope to achieve is worth killing people to obtain, because every confrontation between those who enact or enforce laws has the potential to become lethal. Thanks to human nature and the tragic limitations of human ability to foresight, there are GOING to be outlier cases where people die, no matter how you set up a system, and if you create a perfect law enforcement system that makes it impossible to kill citizens, you'll get cops killed, at which point actual enforcement efforts will tail off to nothing, and where is your law and order now? I took some sort of amateurish personality test in high school and again in college, that revealed I have a strong authoritarian personality. I believe in hierarchy and law and absolute right and wrong, but I keep coming around to limited government, because all I keep seeing is the degradation of those same principles of law and order and hierarchy, through excessive application, even without abuse or malfeasance or corruption.

I think anyone entering a private residence uninvited, who takes a claymore blast to the face gets what is coming to him, no matter what color his work clothes or what documentation signed by a judge he carries. But I can also see the obvious practical problems for society at large in that kind of response. The only genuine solution I can see, is to not encourage or order people (cops) to go into that situation in the first place. Less government, more responsibility, and with God's help, a better world.

Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
Reply to message
So Eric Garner's family is getting $5.9 million dollars. How awesome is that? - 16/07/2015 03:10:14 PM 893 Views
...? *NM* - 16/07/2015 07:09:33 PM 318 Views
we need to stop giving away millions tax dollars and calling it justice - 17/07/2015 01:14:39 AM 444 Views
IDK, I got the impression hustle was a good thing - 17/07/2015 12:42:07 PM 621 Views
I bitched about going Off-Topic the last time I posted on this board... - 17/07/2015 05:22:29 PM 600 Views
Are you being ironic? - 18/07/2015 01:14:07 PM 613 Views
So what do you think he would have doing for money without the tax? - 17/07/2015 05:39:33 PM 524 Views
Who cares? That's his business. - 18/07/2015 01:16:44 PM 612 Views
You seem to care since you brought it up - 18/07/2015 01:28:46 PM 591 Views
why only some child molesters? - 17/07/2015 05:40:21 PM 589 Views
That is two jobs, not one; also, the government does not lobby itself. - 17/07/2015 03:09:15 AM 512 Views
the silly "unarmed" argument - 17/07/2015 04:57:32 AM 582 Views
All I heard was "no one 'needs' guns." - 17/07/2015 10:59:40 AM 679 Views
See, these are tyranny, because the cops picked the fights. - 17/07/2015 02:09:21 PM 559 Views
Cops picked their fight with Garner, too: Why is that not tyranny? - 18/07/2015 03:33:52 AM 565 Views
Re: Cops picked their fight with Garner, too: Why is that not tyranny? - 18/07/2015 01:59:41 PM 593 Views
The above question remains, unanswered - 09/08/2015 04:20:37 AM 591 Views
Sorry but almost everything you said was wrong - 18/07/2015 02:48:44 PM 602 Views
... was exactly that. - 09/08/2015 04:23:54 AM 527 Views
Sorry but almost everything you said was wrong - 18/07/2015 02:48:45 PM 584 Views

Reply to Message