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Yeah, as you may have guessed that also wasn't my plan. Legolas Send a noteboard - 16/03/2017 10:40:26 PM

View original postThe issues around Muslim immigration are really three separate issues that often get conflated and muddled around. First and foremost is the real and legitimate fear of terrorism, generally of the Salafist flavor. Added to this is the general level of intolerance that many in Muslim societies have for people who aren't like them (notably Jews, gays and secularists but also women, particularly emancipated women, Christians and others), which often finds its expression in repressive practices that run the gamut from the simply abhorrent (forced hijab) to the criminal (honor killings). Finally, there is the generalized sense of the "other" that any immigrant group has to get over in a new society, which is not at all unique to Muslims but which still exists.

nods Makes sense to split it up, but I would add a fourth and very important issue: many of the large Muslim immigrant communities in Europe (or at least the Moroccans and Turks in Belgium and the Netherlands and I'd guess Germany, those are the only ones I can really comment on) are not some kind of representative sample taken from their homeland. They, or their parents and grandparents, were recruited in the poorest and most conservative rural areas of these countries. In the decades since they left, their home countries have changed and modernized a lot - but they don't (fully) see that, they have the immigrant's typical outdated view of the homeland. Obviously they too changed in their host countries, but in many cases not as much as they should have - too concentrated, too much living apart in their own communities and putting up united fronts against the rest of society.

Which is how you get to the strange situation that caused the big diplomatic incident in the first place: Erdogan and the AKP get their best scores among the millions of Turks in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium etc. Better than in all but the most rural and conservative parts of Turkey itself. It's entirely plausible that Erdogan wins his referendum narrowly thanks to the votes from abroad - people who have their democratic rights in Germany or the Netherlands or wherever, voting to restrict those of their brethren in Turkey because of their distorted view of Turkey.

When it comes to things like honour killings, those characterize almost exclusively the most conservative, left behind communities in the Muslim world - it just so happens that that description includes a number of people in Europe.

View original postIt's clear that every society keeps out the terrorists, and every society allows some people in despite a generalized anxiety about the "other" that many have. It's the second issue that leads to the most controversy because people differ in their opinions about where to draw the line. I personally would err on the side of caution - let in no one who frequents any Salafist mosque for any reason, let in no one who believes in killing for apostasy, or being gay, or who espouses anti-Semitic beliefs (yes, I realize Arabs are technically Semites, but we all know anti-Semitic means anti-Jewish). Let in no one who would seek to chastise someone for eating pork, or drinking, or wearing short skirts. Let in no one who would ever consider arranging their children's marriages rather than letting those children choose. Let in no one who has no desire to learn the language or fails to do so in a reasonable amount of time. Multiculturalism is wrong thinking. Not all cultures express the same level of tolerance to ours that we do to theirs.

How do you test for all that stuff on refugees coming in? If you're talking about other categories of immigrants - there aren't exactly a lot of those coming in anymore, though I suppose you could further restrict family reunion policies in some countries. But the biggest problem is that many of the people you describe aren't immigrants, they're born here and sometimes even more conservative than their parents, or at least less tolerant - some teenagers rebel against their parents by acting out or boozing it up or flirting with minor crime, others do so by becoming Salafists and trying to join IS in Syria. And if you'd go so far as to consider expelling people who were actually born in your country to their ancestors' homelands: they don't really fit in there either anymore, for the reasons I mentioned above.

I don't entirely disagree with you - multiculturalism is a problem if the different communities remain too segregated, as has happened in many cases in Europe with the Muslim immigrants, much less so in the US or Canada where they were more thinly spread, inevitably less tied to their homelands, and in many cases wealthier and higher educated to begin with. But they're here now, and simplistic solutions aren't going to solve the problems we have. At best, far-right parties like Wilders' have a role to play in keeping the pressure on the mainstream to try and find solutions - and a perhaps less obvious role in promoting political consciousness among the immigrant communities through their hostility, forcing them to engage with the rest of society.

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Dutch elections: Well that was an anticlimax. - 15/03/2017 10:37:32 PM 716 Views
Too bad, but Merkel is the big prize. - 16/03/2017 01:05:40 AM 439 Views
What are you hoping to see happen in Germany, exactly? - 16/03/2017 07:06:43 AM 410 Views
For Merkel to lose..... - 17/03/2017 02:20:58 AM 465 Views
No one (seriously) thought he was going to get a majority. He still gained seats - 16/03/2017 10:24:10 AM 399 Views
Of course not, but still this is a disappointing result for him. - 16/03/2017 05:44:41 PM 391 Views
It will take time but eventually he will win. Or someone like him. - 16/03/2017 09:34:26 PM 520 Views
Let's hope so. - 16/03/2017 09:42:47 PM 435 Views
Watching Turkey is like watching a slow motion train wreck. - 16/03/2017 01:03:43 PM 433 Views
Yup. A no vote in the referendum might improve things - a little. - 16/03/2017 06:04:24 PM 380 Views
As irritating as the Calvinists can be, I don't think you can kick them out. - 16/03/2017 09:39:45 PM 428 Views
Yeah, as you may have guessed that also wasn't my plan. - 16/03/2017 10:40:26 PM 429 Views
Ah, the emigre community disconnect - 16/03/2017 11:29:54 PM 389 Views
I sure wish I paid more attention to European politics. *NM* - 17/03/2017 02:26:21 AM 248 Views

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