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Granny Smith and Golden Delicious, I think. Joel Send a noteboard - 12/10/2009 01:56:03 AM
Geo-politically speaking, the 2 countries cannot be any more dissimilar from each other. I feel in Iran's situation, they do genuinely feel threatened by us. After all, we do literally surround that country with troops - we have a Nato ally and airbase in Turkey, we have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have military bases in Kuwait and Qatar. And the last 8 years of the Bush Administration policy of regime change certainly didn't help matters. I remember in the democratic primary, senator Obama quite famously said to the New York times, that the first thing he intends to do if he's elected to office, is to very publicly and very explicitly take regime change off the table in regards to Iran. Consequently, a lot of that threat within Iran has begun to subside, for example, one of the biggest surprises during the lead-up of the Iran elections between Mousavi and Ahmadinejad, was that the United states really wasn't an issue as it was in past elections.

I'm aware of the geography (more than Bush was, I think) and have noted it here and at wotmania. It's part of why the Iraq invasion was so stupid, because it totally undercut the Khatami governments efforts to democratize and open relations with the West in general along with America specifically. Against the backdrop of Saddams non-existent and North Koreas highly successful nuclear weapons programs it made Ahmadinejads "we need nukes!1!1" policies very appealing for the same reason it made Khatamis insistence America was an honest broker for peace so non-credible.
Maybe it's just bluster on their part, but if so they'll look making an unnecessary veto threat then backing down when Russia supports the rest of the Security Council. Russia now has strong reason to do so, since the economic benefits of Iran getting nuclear energy fuel processed there could be as great as selling Iran nuclear weapons technology, with far less risk. No, on a host of issues, the rapidly increasing economic and diplomatic influence of China is far more critical than Russias.

I was talking mostly in terms on the issue of Iran. China is always going to resistant on any sort of sanctions. They rely heavily on Iran’s vast energy reserves to offset its own shortages. Which is why Russia is the key on this, while they have their own invested interests, they genuinely do not want Iran to have a nuclear weapons capability.

China isn't going to let Russias desire to sell Iran finished products rather than letting Iran independently produce them stand in their way. It's one of the few reasons Russia's a better partner for peace; they see it as in their interest to keep rogue states perpetually beholden to them, while China seems to think nothing of setting them up with all the military hardware they want in the interest of both profits and complicating things for their supposed American allies. That radicals in Pakistan might decide to send their nukes back to them over treatment of Muslim extremists in China is rather cold comfort for everyone. But don't kid yourself that if it comes down to it China's not willing to exercise a unilateral veto of efforts to prevent Iranian nuclear weapons.
Both countries, however, recognize that for either to gain the long coveted global position America enjoys America must first be removed from it. Most people seem to take the attitude that America has too much influence and the world needs to reduce that to have a partnership of equals. Thing is, the world has never done that; attempts to do so result in a global power vacuum someone always fills. Russia and China both hope to be the ones to do that, but China is in a far better position, largely thanks to our aid and the collapse of Russia with the Soviets fall. It's more likely they'll continue to work together against the US than oppose each other in the short term; they can always pull what Hitler did with the von Ribbentrop Pact, but in the interim they're increasingly presenting a united front, and increasingly getting global support:

http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/366/15273_alliance.html

http://www.heritage.org/Research/RussiaandEurasia/BG1459.cfm

Primakov's Triangle has always been a nice fantasy. The problem however, is that China, Russia and India tend to distrust each other more than they distrust us. That pravda article even states the unlikeliness of that ever happening. A China that is growing economically and militarily isn't necessary good news for Russia (a country that is demographically shrinking faster than Europe) certainly in terms of influence over Central Asia. It's not like we're ever going to be best-friends with Russia, given the history of our two countries there's always going to be an element of mutual enmity, but there's also a mutual desire to seek cooperation and partnership on certain geo-political issues that are important to both of our strategic interests.

The issue seems to be whether Russia and China think it more advantageous to work with us against common foes in each other, or work with each other against a common foe in us. And as the worlds top political, economic and military power, the answer seems fairly clear as they prevent the only obstacles to limiting nuclear proliferation, the only real source of that proliferation. I think their position as a Commonwealth state and China giving Pakistan the bomb will keep India out of such an arrangement (though Indias growing economic might, a hostile nuclear power on its border and decades old alliances with us and the British may make the term "quagmire" inadequate; think of it more as a nuclear free for all that may make Kashmir long for the days all it had to fear was bombers and tanks. ) But right now it's in the interest of China and Russia to topple the king of the mountain, and aiding the nuclear ambitions of radical states serves that interest on both a military front from which they can be largely free of involvement and an economic front where they compete with no one save each other as nuclear weapons merchants.
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This message last edited by Joel on 12/10/2009 at 01:56:37 AM
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