Some information and a question - Edit 1
Before modification by JasonD at 02/03/2010 05:51:11 AM
Some Information
Historians across the board agree that Japan's attack on the U.S. was a preemptive strike, carried out because Japan believed the U.S. would counterattack the Japanese in response to invasions of Dutch and U.K. territory. After all, one could "spin" that either way: An antiwar historian might say that the U.S. was prone to military interference where it was none of our business, particularly when European colonies (as opposed to native-controlled nations) were threatened. Pro-war counterparts might say that the U.S. was ready and willing to protect the citizens of the South Pacific from conquest by a brutal, foreign regime.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#Background_to_conflict)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_leading_to_the_attack_on_Pearl_Harbor)
(http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/wwiipaccauses_2.htm)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_War#Japan_attacks_the_Western_Powers)
(http://www.2worldwar2.com/yamamoto.htm)
(http://www.pearlharbor.org/history-of-pearl-harbor.asp)
If Japan had intended to eventually conquer U.S. Pacific territory, but had not feared a U.S. military response to their occupation of Dutch territory, then the bombing of Pearl Harbor makes no sense. It would have been the equivalent of Hitler declaring war on the Soviet Union on the day that Germany invaded France.
A Question
Wow - that was a dumb statement even for you!
Did you conclude that Cannoli was dumb because you thought his historical account of Japanese motivations was inaccurate?
If so, you might want to change that insulting subject line. An apology would be nice, too, but I understand that those are difficult.
Or: Do you assume that Cannoli is dumb because he disagrees with you, and therefore look for reasons to justify it?
If so, you'll probably want to find some different reasons.
Cheers,
Jason
However you are missing or more likely ignoring, the entire Japanese culture of the time, which was a resurgence of militarism and was being exercised through conquest....
Hawaii was going to get attacked eventually - it is part of the Pacific and the Japanese plan was to make the Pacific their own personal lake.
[...]
Sorry - reality is this. The US REALLY didn't want to get involved in another World War....
As long as Japan wanted what they wanted, all the political efforts in the world weren't going to keep Hawaii and the Aleutians from being attacked. Maybe even the West Coast, hard to say. A few sanctions and the like weren't what caused that, they were in response to that.
Hawaii was going to get attacked eventually - it is part of the Pacific and the Japanese plan was to make the Pacific their own personal lake.
[...]
Sorry - reality is this. The US REALLY didn't want to get involved in another World War....
As long as Japan wanted what they wanted, all the political efforts in the world weren't going to keep Hawaii and the Aleutians from being attacked. Maybe even the West Coast, hard to say. A few sanctions and the like weren't what caused that, they were in response to that.
Historians across the board agree that Japan's attack on the U.S. was a preemptive strike, carried out because Japan believed the U.S. would counterattack the Japanese in response to invasions of Dutch and U.K. territory. After all, one could "spin" that either way: An antiwar historian might say that the U.S. was prone to military interference where it was none of our business, particularly when European colonies (as opposed to native-controlled nations) were threatened. Pro-war counterparts might say that the U.S. was ready and willing to protect the citizens of the South Pacific from conquest by a brutal, foreign regime.
Following Japanese expansion into French Indochina after the fall of France, the U.S. ceased oil exports to Japan in July 1941, in part because of new American restrictions on domestic oil consumption. President Franklin D. Roosevelt had earlier moved the Pacific Fleet to Hawaii and ordered a military buildup in the Philippines in the hope of discouraging Japanese aggression in the Far East. Because the Japanese high command was (mistakenly) certain any attack on the British Southeast Asian colonies would bring the U.S. into the wa, a devastating preventive strike appeared to be the only way to avoid U.S. naval interference.
Japanese confidence in their ability to achieve a short, victorious war also meant other targets in the harbor, especially the Navy Yard, oil tank farms, and Submarine Base, could safely be ignored, since the war would be over before the influence of these facilities would be felt.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#Background_to_conflict)
To secure oil supplies, and other resources, Japanese planners had long been looking south, especially the Dutch East Indies. The Navy was certain any attempt to seize this region would bring the U.S. into the war...
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_leading_to_the_attack_on_Pearl_Harbor)
The American oil embargo caused a crisis in Japan.... the military was looking south to the Netherlands East Indies and their rich sources of oil and rubber. Believing that an attack in this region would cause the US to declare war, they began planning for such an eventuality.
...a preemptive strike against the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, HI, as well as simultaneous strikes against the Philippines, Netherlands East Indies, and the British colonies in the region. The goal of this plan was to eliminate the American threat, allowing Japanese forces to secure the Dutch and British colonies.
...a preemptive strike against the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, HI, as well as simultaneous strikes against the Philippines, Netherlands East Indies, and the British colonies in the region. The goal of this plan was to eliminate the American threat, allowing Japanese forces to secure the Dutch and British colonies.
(http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/wwiipaccauses_2.htm)
The Japanese had gambled that the United States, when faced with such a sudden and massive defeat, would agree to a negotiated settlement and allow Japan free rein in China.... Japan's fallback strategy, relying on a war of attrition to make the US come to terms, was beyond the IJN's capabilities.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_War#Japan_attacks_the_Western_Powers)
Before he left, Yamamoto was asked by prime minister Konoe about Japan's chances in a war against the United States and Great Britain. His answer was "We can run wild for six months or a year, but after that I have utterly no confidence."
...Admiral Yamamoto knew that the best thing for Japan in such a war was to destroy the US Pacific Fleet in a long range preemptive attack by carriers aircraft at its main base in Pearl Harbor.
...Admiral Yamamoto knew that the best thing for Japan in such a war was to destroy the US Pacific Fleet in a long range preemptive attack by carriers aircraft at its main base in Pearl Harbor.
(http://www.2worldwar2.com/yamamoto.htm)
September 1940. The U.S. placed an embargo on Japan by prohibiting exports of steel, scrap iron, and aviation fuel to Japan, due to Japan's takeover of northern French Indochina.
June 1941 through the end of July 1941. Japan occupied southern Indochina. Two days later, the U.S., Britain, and the Netherlands froze Japanese assets. This prevented Japan from buying oil, which would, in time, cripple its army and make its navy and air force completely useless.
They proposed to sweep into Burma, Malaya, the East Indies, and the Philippines, in addition to establishing a defensive perimeter in the central and southwest Pacific. They expected the U.S. to declare war but not to be willing to fight long or hard enough to win. Their greatest concern was that the U.S. Pacific Fleet, based in Pearl Harbor could foil their plans. As insurance, the Japanese navy undertook to cripple the Pacific Fleet by a surprise air attack.
June 1941 through the end of July 1941. Japan occupied southern Indochina. Two days later, the U.S., Britain, and the Netherlands froze Japanese assets. This prevented Japan from buying oil, which would, in time, cripple its army and make its navy and air force completely useless.
They proposed to sweep into Burma, Malaya, the East Indies, and the Philippines, in addition to establishing a defensive perimeter in the central and southwest Pacific. They expected the U.S. to declare war but not to be willing to fight long or hard enough to win. Their greatest concern was that the U.S. Pacific Fleet, based in Pearl Harbor could foil their plans. As insurance, the Japanese navy undertook to cripple the Pacific Fleet by a surprise air attack.
(http://www.pearlharbor.org/history-of-pearl-harbor.asp)
If Japan had intended to eventually conquer U.S. Pacific territory, but had not feared a U.S. military response to their occupation of Dutch territory, then the bombing of Pearl Harbor makes no sense. It would have been the equivalent of Hitler declaring war on the Soviet Union on the day that Germany invaded France.
A Question
It was the actions of the government that gave Japan a reason to attack us. Classical liberal or libertarians would not have incited Japan by freezing their assets or interfering with their commerce.
Wow - that was a dumb statement even for you!
Did you conclude that Cannoli was dumb because you thought his historical account of Japanese motivations was inaccurate?
If so, you might want to change that insulting subject line. An apology would be nice, too, but I understand that those are difficult.
Or: Do you assume that Cannoli is dumb because he disagrees with you, and therefore look for reasons to justify it?
If so, you'll probably want to find some different reasons.
Cheers,
Jason