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I imagine modern Armenia is more placating, yes. Joel Send a noteboard - 15/03/2010 05:58:24 AM

If I were an Armenian (or Kurd) I wouldn't trust the Porte farther than I could throw the Hagia Sophia. Talk and token reforms to convince the EU they're not as bad as Syria don't impress me. Show me real change.


Obviously the genocide is a key topic in the discussions between modern Armenia and Turkey, too, and Turkey has made concessions on that topic, accepting bilateral investigation commissions and that sort of thing. We'll have to see what kind of results those come up with, and how those results are dealt with - whether Turkey can accept them if they are more critical than it would like, and whether Armenia can accept them if they aren't as critical as it would like.

The main differences between modern Armenia and the Armenian diaspora communities are that, firstly, modern Armenia spent half a century under Soviet dictatorship, and as such has other and more recent scars, and secondly, they are a neighbour of Turkey and have an interest in maintaining good relations with it. The current détente has a lot of economic benefits for Armenia, although it will be hard to reach any permanently good relations as long as the Nagorno-Karabakh problem remains, whatever happens about the genocide. The diaspora on the other hand has all the money and the living comfort they want in France and the US, so what do they care about modern Armenia's economic and political interests, or its need to show some diplomacy in dealing with Turkey, all they care about is the genocide. You might want to think twice about letting a small but influential lobby like that influence your foreign policy in a way that harms relations with an important ally without seeming to bring the US much of anything. It's all very easy to suck up to the Armenian lobby while running for president or while sitting in Congress, but if you're actually in the White House or actually involved with the country's foreign policy, suddenly you no longer have the luxury of doing things for no better purpose than to claim a moral high ground.

And I'm sorry, but if you don't see real change in Turkey, the only thing I can say is, you're not looking. The fact that much of that change is inspired by the EU's demands doesn't mean that it isn't happening, and doesn't mean that they are things that can easily be turned back. Erdogan confronted the military head-on, had dozens of officers arrested. In the old Turkey, he would've had a coup coming and perhaps even would've been hanged. In modern Turkey, the chief of staff of the armed forces sucked it up and gave in - as armed forces in a democratic society are supposed to do, although I find many people think that rule doesn't apply to Turkey for some reason, and it's okay to overthrow democratic governments if they're Muslim.

Were I the victim of a neighbors never punished genocide I'd probably choose my words carefully when we spoke, too. I think the willingness to condone military coups in Turkey has less to do with the alternative of a Muslim state (I assume the generals are all Coptic, right? :rolleyes: ) than with the Siege of Vienna and centuries of religious conflict in Europe that was born of the Muslim conquest of Turkey, and which has two world wars and Milosevic as its legacy. Given how impotent, how dismissive, Europe was of genocide in Bosnia during the Twentieth Century Turkeys admission to the EU seems to me a very bad idea until/unless they show a lot more reform and put the idea of theocracy to rest for good. It's less about anti-Muslim or anti-democratic bias than it is about not giving religious extremists power to threaten millions (the same reason the US supported Musharraf in Pakistan: If we hadn't the Taliban would have nuclear weapons now. )
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Heh, Erdogan is pissed - 04/03/2010 10:47:20 PM 299 Views
Sigh. I wish they would stop trying to pass that. - 04/03/2010 10:55:58 PM 190 Views
If Erdogan has no problem making scenes like the one in Davos why should he expect any less ? - 05/03/2010 12:11:33 AM 180 Views
What, are you still mad about that? - 05/03/2010 12:30:57 AM 182 Views
With all due respect, fuck Turkey. - 05/03/2010 12:35:03 AM 186 Views
With all due respect, that's nothing new coming from you. - 05/03/2010 12:48:05 AM 184 Views
Turkey is an abomination. - 05/03/2010 01:20:31 AM 187 Views
I don't like the new military uniform colors. Off to prison!!! *NM* - 05/03/2010 01:38:58 AM 84 Views
I agree with Tom *NM* - 05/03/2010 12:50:13 AM 82 Views
How is denying the eponym's genocide improving relations with Armenia? - 05/03/2010 01:44:17 AM 189 Views
Please don't throw the Hagia Sophia. - 05/03/2010 02:01:31 AM 194 Views
Perish the thought. - 05/03/2010 02:13:15 AM 162 Views
Modern Armenia looks at it rather differently than the diaspora does. - 05/03/2010 09:58:21 AM 183 Views
Yes, but the Turks are pretending not to understand democracy - 05/03/2010 11:04:25 AM 172 Views
I imagine modern Armenia is more placating, yes. - 15/03/2010 05:58:24 AM 172 Views
I wish the Turks would just admit it on their own. - 05/03/2010 12:33:27 AM 170 Views
I agree. They just need to man up and admit it, apologize, and move on. *NM* - 05/03/2010 01:38:12 AM 78 Views
So what? - 05/03/2010 01:40:22 AM 205 Views
I think it is a trickey one. - 05/03/2010 10:18:02 AM 178 Views

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