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Just use a VotF Doctrine Isaac Send a noteboard - 24/05/2010 05:46:05 AM
Also, I was pretty sure I'd die again before I lost my powers. One day, you must explain to me how you manage to never be night killed. I don't think there's been a game where I was a Darkfriend and you were a Lightsider, but I certainly wouldn't let you live indefinitely.


Just threaten them on day 1, point out how likely you are to be the candidate for night 1 doccing and watching. Or go the full route, we both declare it's irritating to know that if DF, we're absurdly likely to be copped on the first night, and if town we're likely to be NK'd, and it's a bit of a funbreaker and bad sportsmanship. The only way around it is to point out that both of us will be in future games and will have to view anyone who targets us basically on the grounds of 'simply a big threat as a player regardless of role' as a potential threat on those grounds and they will be far more likely to be lynched or NK'd. And that having said that, even if we don't kill said person they are a great deal more likely to be killed by someone seeking to cast suspicion on us.

"If anyone targets me for copping or NK on night 1 I will kill them at my first available opportunity in the future, and having said that I will definitely do this it massively raises the odds someone will kill you other than me because they can push suspicion on to me, nor do I have to fear your death being laid at my feet is auto-death, because it is actually more likely, by the same reasoning you used to target me on night 1, that I am a major threat in of myself, that someone killed you just to frame me, so I can risk a possible lynch." Says FT or Isaac.

"But that's not fair, you're holding a previous game against me, this would be a new game." Says Victim-of-the-Future.

"To the contrary, it is the very reason for your action, you have targeted me on the basis of previous games." Says FTI

"But it makes strategic sense, I didn't have any clear targets and you're potentially very dangerous." Says VotF.

"I agree, but by that same logic it makes sense for me to say that I will reply in kind, and to do so to show it is not a bluff, may I refer you to the 'Mutually Assured Destruction' and 'No First Use' nuclear strategies. It makes good strategic sense to target me on night 1 when there are no clear candidates, I know it's not personal, if anything it is a sign of respect, but I am a strategist, if someone has a good strategy I must either concede defeat and realize I will rarely survive the first night and the game becomes boring, or I must make this good strategy a bad one, so people do not wish to pursue it. So I must threaten to retaliate and I must make it abundantly clear it is not a bluff, it then becomes a bad strategy."

VotF, "Makes sense, by why not only Night 1 NKs, why copping too?"

"Simple, if not stopped it is a threat to me, and not just when I'm a DF, knowing that I will be copped on night 1 means I die almost assuredly any time I'm a DF, but it also means that when not a DF the DFs have a greater reason to kill me on future nights because I am likely to have been copped and have probtown status. After all, who if they copped me guilty would not almost immediately proclaim it? Therefore I must ensure that targeting me for any night 1 action that results in my death or my alignment being defined is a hostile act. Anyone complicit in that strategy must be killed at the soonest convenient chance to prove it is not a bluff or killing/copping me remains a good strategy, my only logical strategy is to make it clear that it is not a good strategy." Says FTI

"But then we can never target you, that's unfair!" Says VotF.

"Not all, you can never target me when the obvious primary motivator and reason was that you see me, the player, not me, the current character, as a great threat. It will be hard for me to ever view any early night action as anything but a qualifier, I suggest you keep a clear NB record of why you targeted me for this-game specific reasons if you choose to do so, even if I was selected randomly so that you can prove it wasn't 'me the player' that was the target. That way I can say you are not my VotF without having anyone doubt that the policy is still in place when you don't die." Says FTI

"What if other players object to this policy?" Says VotF

"Unlikely, they too can see the logic of it, and must understand that if I am targeted for night actions a disproportionate percent of the time I am under a heavy handicap for play and may eventually have to quit, I tend to be viewed as keeping the game interesting, so they are unlikely to take issue with either the logic of the VotF Doctrine nor ethics of it, there too, they will be glad to see the doc freed up from the expectation of having to protect me and the knowledge that if I die their RC as a protective role will be viewed with doubt as either lying or fairly poor tactician, hence a good kill or a small loss if telling the truth. By doing this, I actually improve gameplay, because we remove a predictable pattern of 'Everyone target me on Night 1', and few will argue the point even if they disagree since they'd realize that just saying they don't accept the reasoning would have to make me view them as a greater threat." Says FTI

"Wow, FTI, that makes a lot of sense, how'd you think it up?." Say no-longer-VotF.

"Hey, the best defense is a good offense, and I wouldn't have to need a VotF Doctrine if I weren't a good strategist, would I?" Says FTI

So, basically, if you want to avoid this constant cycle of you and me getting whacked, copped, or lynched on general principle you just say something along these lines before a game starts... like this ;) I suspect a lot of people have guessed I might have such a policy to begin with, due to the insanely high rate of casualties of those who have targeted me for lynch or NK, IIRC no one has survived a game they voted for me (even a lot of the people who jokingly voted for me on day 1) or died early in a game after trying for a NK on me in the previous one, though that was not usually my reasoning at the time.

Anyway I formalize this Doctrine before returning to play and offer it to you for use to since you actually get it worse than me and games are less interesting for me when you're not in them. Besides, nobody else besides us currently is a night action magnet.


The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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RAFO Mafia 16: In the Manor of Mad Muad - Post Game Discussion - 23/05/2010 01:25:25 AM 1414 Views
PGM: Role Assignments (up) - 23/05/2010 01:29:00 AM 925 Views
PGM: Day-Night 1 Flavor - 23/05/2010 01:34:22 AM 1064 Views
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PGM: Day-Night 2 Flavor - 23/05/2010 01:34:50 AM 1146 Views
PGM: Day-Night 3 Flavor - 23/05/2010 01:35:25 AM 1114 Views
PGM: Day-Night 4 Flavor - 23/05/2010 01:35:55 AM 1069 Views
PGM: Day-Night 5 Flavor - 23/05/2010 01:36:28 AM 1247 Views
PGM: Day-Night 6 Flavor (up) - 23/05/2010 01:37:08 AM 1259 Views
PGM: Full Role discussion (Pending) *NM* - 23/05/2010 01:37:49 AM 550 Views
PGM: Game Themes, Clues, Summary - 23/05/2010 01:38:29 AM 1036 Views
Re: PGM: Game Themes, Clues, Summary - 23/05/2010 09:33:37 PM 996 Views
Just use a VotF Doctrine - 24/05/2010 05:46:05 AM 1284 Views
Thanks. - 24/05/2010 06:32:07 AM 945 Views
Re: Thanks. - 24/05/2010 07:05:06 AM 1072 Views
It's useful too. - 24/05/2010 07:11:00 AM 967 Views
Re: It's useful too. - 24/05/2010 07:28:11 AM 983 Views
PGM: Night Action Logs (up) - 23/05/2010 02:38:01 AM 1185 Views
Damn. We were doing pretty nice there. - 23/05/2010 01:36:58 AM 1108 Views
Yeah it was close *NM* - 23/05/2010 01:40:47 AM 633 Views
You certainly blindsided me! - 23/05/2010 01:50:25 AM 1073 Views
So did I - 23/05/2010 02:11:10 AM 1121 Views
Crap, really? Shoulda killed beet! - 23/05/2010 03:30:40 AM 1068 Views
I knew I should have listened to my instincts! - 23/05/2010 01:53:50 AM 984 Views
Yes, I was. - 23/05/2010 03:37:43 AM 1093 Views
Yes he did... - 23/05/2010 01:44:28 PM 878 Views
Great game! - 23/05/2010 01:42:19 AM 995 Views
Re: Great game! - 23/05/2010 03:20:29 AM 917 Views
This was in my opinion definitely the best game thus far! *NM* - 23/05/2010 03:21:30 AM 589 Views
Dito - 23/05/2010 01:56:58 PM 926 Views
Sheesh. Awesome game, guys. And well done, Isaac - 23/05/2010 01:57:04 AM 1086 Views
The second explosion - 23/05/2010 02:14:35 AM 915 Views
For the explanation, read the Dawn 5 message that I received - 23/05/2010 08:46:05 AM 1061 Views
How'd you guess it was Kronin? *NM* - 23/05/2010 09:48:23 AM 759 Views
Because neither you nor rana would have killed me - 23/05/2010 11:05:13 PM 965 Views
I was the one outside WF's balcony - 23/05/2010 01:47:12 PM 1041 Views
Oh yeah. Fox and Ravens, care to take a guess at who I suspected from Night 1? - 23/05/2010 03:04:53 AM 1004 Views
I'd been wondering... - 23/05/2010 04:31:02 AM 1017 Views
Yeppers - 23/05/2010 04:49:33 AM 1029 Views
I also imagine there was a potential for friction between BlackAdder and Ranagrande. - 23/05/2010 05:20:17 AM 925 Views
Yep, and your first character and Gher - 23/05/2010 05:26:47 AM 956 Views
Ignore this, its in the wrong spot. *NM* - 23/05/2010 11:11:52 PM 562 Views
The unopposed champion for "Longest RAFO Post Ever" - 23/05/2010 04:45:27 AM 1000 Views
Gotta say I was really pissed at myself - 23/05/2010 04:58:12 AM 1011 Views
Hey, I'm pretty proud of myself for my use of Science! - 23/05/2010 05:22:04 AM 905 Views
Even with your immense failure.... - 23/05/2010 05:47:22 AM 1026 Views
I think we probably still would have won anyway - 23/05/2010 06:09:54 AM 1035 Views
Hm. - 23/05/2010 06:18:38 AM 1030 Views
To Evil! - 23/05/2010 11:15:08 PM 984 Views
I really regret not bussing you. - 23/05/2010 11:14:07 PM 903 Views
I was pretty proud of that list - 24/05/2010 06:51:10 AM 900 Views
So who's running the next one? - 23/05/2010 06:49:08 AM 887 Views
kylia skydancer is *NM* - 23/05/2010 10:13:49 AM 518 Views
I thought her game was going to be in-character? - 23/05/2010 12:10:26 PM 865 Views
and? - 23/05/2010 12:38:52 PM 932 Views
Nah, there aren't a whole lot of people for Divya's - 23/05/2010 02:02:01 PM 924 Views
I agree. *NM* - 23/05/2010 04:19:07 PM 504 Views
Also Agreed *NM* - 23/05/2010 04:35:18 PM 572 Views
Alright, so whoever was next in line, open up a Sign-up. - 23/05/2010 05:16:52 PM 1060 Views
Fox or ranagrande - 23/05/2010 06:00:00 PM 913 Views
Yeah, it will be ranagrande to mod - 23/05/2010 06:07:47 PM 923 Views
So, we're going to have two at the same time? - 23/05/2010 07:23:25 PM 938 Views
Possibly - 23/05/2010 07:42:24 PM 989 Views
OK, I'll try - 23/05/2010 08:04:07 PM 851 Views
- 25/05/2010 06:17:16 AM 1081 Views
Intimidated? *NM* - 25/05/2010 04:56:51 AM 609 Views
You are I think - 23/05/2010 06:09:16 PM 894 Views
Also, what would have happened if I outright claimed to be a male channeler? - 23/05/2010 09:09:28 AM 927 Views
It became a bit easier to lynch you - 23/05/2010 10:35:33 AM 939 Views
So Yuna, can you NOW explaine what went wrong with your flavor claim? - 23/05/2010 01:53:24 PM 914 Views
The number of Lightsiders who lied or allowed others to lie this game is staggering. *NM* - 23/05/2010 06:44:45 PM 562 Views
I agree - 23/05/2010 06:47:46 PM 950 Views
I lied by omission, but I couldn't see any additional benefit to claiming doc *NM* - 23/05/2010 10:58:05 PM 587 Views
You claimed that Ranagrande had to be bulletproof because nobody protected him. *NM* - 24/05/2010 04:44:48 AM 566 Views
Well yes, but it was because I knew my protection wasn't the reason he survived. - 24/05/2010 05:30:03 AM 898 Views
Your message indicates it wasn't the sole reason he survived... - 24/05/2010 06:40:29 AM 837 Views
I think that's a good question for Isaac - 24/05/2010 07:18:31 AM 899 Views
Re: I think that's a good question for Isaac - 24/05/2010 08:13:24 AM 1210 Views
Oh, okay, your conclusion was perfectly valid then. - 24/05/2010 07:12:57 PM 1089 Views
Even I didn't lie. It's weird. *NM* - 24/05/2010 07:05:55 AM 511 Views
We really need to lynch all liars. - 24/05/2010 01:20:56 PM 1065 Views
Re: We really need to lynch all liars. - 25/05/2010 04:19:51 AM 881 Views
Then they shouldn't roleclaim at all. - 25/05/2010 04:27:39 AM 1116 Views
Sadly, silence can then be assumed as an assention to guilt (i.e., "I'm a doc/cop" ). - 25/05/2010 05:21:04 AM 982 Views
Well, I pretty much never roleclaim, and I get around fine . *NM* - 25/05/2010 05:24:19 AM 487 Views
Re: Then they shouldn't roleclaim at all. - 25/05/2010 05:24:54 AM 965 Views
Yep. - 25/05/2010 05:33:16 AM 945 Views
Re: Yep. - 25/05/2010 06:38:10 AM 954 Views
No, lying is almost always antitown. - 25/05/2010 06:47:29 AM 945 Views
Agreed. The lie is actually helping in that case. - 25/05/2010 08:09:24 AM 1211 Views
my reason for the nth time - 23/05/2010 06:54:27 PM 997 Views
By the way DF's, what made me so good looking target that I got killed on night 2? *NM* - 23/05/2010 04:25:38 PM 464 Views
The DFs didn't kill you as a group - 23/05/2010 04:41:09 PM 909 Views
That was it. - 23/05/2010 05:15:51 PM 874 Views
I thought you were going to add 'decapitator' to your signature after the game *NM* - 23/05/2010 07:28:02 PM 523 Views
I think he should. It would be great way to indicate notable succes in such a risky business! *NM* - 23/05/2010 07:38:26 PM 491 Views
Yes, please do that, Kronin. It would be AWESOME. - 23/05/2010 11:58:11 PM 842 Views
'Tis DONE *NM* - 24/05/2010 12:09:55 AM 524 Views
Think how much better Planeteers would have been... *NM* - 24/05/2010 06:59:06 AM 565 Views
Makes sense. *NM* - 23/05/2010 07:37:33 PM 464 Views
Q for Gher - 23/05/2010 06:57:33 PM 856 Views
Well... - 23/05/2010 09:56:23 PM 1077 Views
We didn't need to go after her. - 24/05/2010 04:08:04 AM 880 Views
Well yeah, but I didn't know that. *NM* - 25/05/2010 05:50:05 AM 518 Views
Yeah, we had this whole contingency plan figured out - 24/05/2010 07:02:11 AM 943 Views
I thought - 24/05/2010 07:29:40 AM 1010 Views
The Unofficial Mod Criteria and Waiting List (Table) - 23/05/2010 07:01:30 PM 1262 Views
I've got an idea for a game when my time comes, and I'll be ripping off your style from this game - 23/05/2010 09:42:13 PM 885 Views
Please! I want to play Shadows of Amador! - 23/05/2010 11:54:59 PM 927 Views
Rip away - 24/05/2010 06:10:42 AM 945 Views
Well, given the position you were all in when I left... - 24/05/2010 06:35:18 AM 957 Views
Re: Well, given the position you were all in when I left... - 24/05/2010 07:10:46 AM 1012 Views
Yeah, but Kronin is one of the players who is still interested . - 24/05/2010 07:16:01 AM 916 Views
If Napoleon isn't still in... - 24/05/2010 03:38:57 PM 898 Views
I'm still interested! - 24/05/2010 01:16:26 PM 1006 Views
I'd like to add myself to the back of the queue, actually. - 23/05/2010 11:53:18 PM 919 Views
Re: The Unofficial Mod Criteria and Waiting List - 24/05/2010 03:34:50 AM 876 Views
Re: The Unofficial Mod Criteria and Waiting List - 24/05/2010 06:13:43 AM 1022 Views
Just for clarification... - 24/05/2010 07:05:28 AM 953 Views
Re: Just for clarification... - 24/05/2010 07:08:48 AM 946 Views
Great game. - 23/05/2010 09:58:18 PM 826 Views
Thank-you to All and Especially Isaac. - 24/05/2010 09:07:35 PM 854 Views
Re: Thank-you to All and Especially Isaac. - 24/05/2010 10:19:08 PM 1008 Views
RP Mafia game getting way this friday btw. - 25/05/2010 05:03:47 AM 812 Views

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