Role Playing Messageboard: Yeah, and maybe more likely to visit the RPGMB. by Joel

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Yeah, and maybe more likely to visit the RPGMB. Joel Send a noteboard - 08/03/2013 09:59:38 PM

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View original postOdds are not favorable to a sign-value notation system as opposed to a positional value notation system thinking to use 2d10 to come up with '42'. I can't recall if they were sign or positional, but I would guess in roman numerals a large value with ten sided dice would be more likely to be created by thinking to paint two dice with a I, II, III, IV, V, X, L, C, D, and M each and adding them up, which wouldn't give you an even spread from smallest to highest value. To recognize how superfluous a d100 is you'd have to have a positional notation system, the base, 10 or otherwise, wouldn't matter. They could do it anyway but it would be a hell of a lot less obvious and sufficiently weird and counter-intuitive that it wouldn't likely show up in casual gaming. If base 6 is your system, you probably would have the 2d10 for 00-99 concept in the games rather than 2-12 bell curve on 7 we use, for instance. If your number system is sign or tally you'd like as not just roll more dice for bigger numbers and shrug off random distribution.

From what I found at Wikipedia just now, evidently ancient Egypt had:

1) A hieroglyphic number set for engraving, with ONLY symbols for 0, 1/2, 3/4 and the powers of 10 through 1,000,000 arranged as nonpositional tallies,

2) hieratic set for papyri, with symbols for each ordinal number AND their multiples by 10, 100 and 1000, and

3) a Demotic set developed in the middle of the last millenium BC, on which I have seen little detail.

The die in the article looks to be inscribed in Greek, which further complicates things because it seems there was both Demotic (Egyptian) and demotic (Greek which has descended as the official language of modern Greece.) To top it all off, I found one journal publication available online claiming Golden Age Greece probably borrowed its number system from Demotic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_numerals
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/Ancient-Africa/egyptTOgreek.html

In the first two systems d100 would still be superfluous, but could not be replaced by two identical d10; each die would need a wholly different symbol set (unless they just said, "screw it: This other d10 is a d10-100 now.") It looks very likely, however, that the die in the article uses the third (assuming it is meant to depict numbers, not letters,) and I have no idea how that one worked, so maybe Tom can weigh in and enlighten us.

View original postAs to what the hell they used them for, it is probably fair to note that divination vs game can be fairly vague to the point of irrelevance, ditto teaching and games, since our ancestors knew and practiced the concept of Edu-tainment just as we do. If the things were reasonably cheap to make they probably would end up being used for tons of stuff.

Yeah, it is that speculation that is so intriguing (and I did consider the short road from divination to game, or vice versa.) They could be naming cubes for all we know. I am reasonably confident without checking there is not a "valid" Egyptian name for all combinations of Egyptian hyroglyphs, but then again the Bengals used to have a receiver named Chad Ochocinco, so.... shrugs

Well it is too much for me to ponder, I wouldn't mind knowing which system they were using but once language gets into things my brain shuts down. Gabriel's a classic's guy so he might be able to tell

I have to be honest, I have never really understood that whichever direction it went; probably why my SAT Math and Verbal scores were within 20 points of each other. Math is just another language; it simply uses numbers instead of letters, conjugations, declensions etc. instead of addition, multiplication etc. Cryptology is at least as much math as language, even though it primarily deals with the latter, and much the same is true of the dreaded story problems. I am not saying I am some kind of polymath; I suck at pretty much EVERYTHING related to art, can only draw a straight line if you tell me to draw a sin wave, am mediocre at best with foreign languages and have the people skills of a rock (you may have noticed...

) but liberal arts baffling math/natural science whizzes (and the converse) has always baffled ME.

A more relevant case in point: It is not even certain language DOES get into this; evidently Ancient Greeks and Egyptians often mapped numbers to letters, using one symbol set for both and relying on context to clarify which. Pretty common ancient practice, from what I can tell, and much of why numerology has been around so long. You are probably aware scholars STILL debate whether certain OT character strings represent nouns or numbers, because it COULD be either, and the context does not unambiguously reveal which. I am less surprised so many cultures did it then than that so few do it now.

Hopefully one of our resident Classics and/or Archeological scholars can pop in soon and clarify the matter as much as possible. I, at least, still have far more questions than answers about this, which is much of the fascination, so even the smallest amount of reliable information would be a welcome addition and improvement. Kind of like the guy with the 340,000 year old chromosome (due to my massive mental block with biology. )

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Ancient d20 Emerges from the Ashes of Time Joel - 07/03/2013 05:23:05 PM 961 Views

That's amazing. Fanatic-Templar - 07/03/2013 06:44:33 PM 713 Views

It is very clearly a die, too, not just some random engraved sculpture. Joel - 07/03/2013 09:53:04 PM 750 Views

Cool. *NM* Bergioyn - 07/03/2013 07:06:43 PM 353 Views

It is rumored Marc Antony preferred playing Bards. Joel - 07/03/2013 10:01:06 PM 788 Views

"Cleo, stay in character!" "I am!" "No you're not, you're your usual slutty self!" *NM* Bergioyn - 07/03/2013 10:37:12 PM 430 Views

"Um, the rest of us are OK with that, Marc.

" "Well I'M not; Cleo, put your top back on!

" Joel - 08/03/2013 09:46:03 AM 758 Views

I suppose it isn't too surprising, very darn cool though Isaac - 07/03/2013 10:32:37 PM 695 Views

Makes one wonder about the purpose(s) for which the dice were used. Joel - 08/03/2013 10:29:19 AM 700 Views

Re: Makes one wonder about the purpose(s) for which the dice were used. Isaac - 08/03/2013 03:43:57 PM 583 Views

Tom would probably be our best source on symbols; apparently ancient Egypt had THREE numeric sets. Joel - 08/03/2013 06:24:27 PM 748 Views

Tom probably, maybe Ghav Isaac - 08/03/2013 07:29:32 PM 746 Views

Yeah, and maybe more likely to visit the RPGMB. Joel - 08/03/2013 09:59:38 PM 816 Views

The Fortress of Solitude always welcomes guests

Isaac - 08/03/2013 10:49:59 PM 715 Views

Like Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers? You expect me to fall for that as easily as General Zod did? Joel - 09/03/2013 11:14:24 PM 814 Views

Never hurts to try

Isaac - 10/03/2013 02:40:19 AM 689 Views

Do or do not....

Joel - 11/03/2013 04:31:46 PM 922 Views

Re: Do or do not....

Isaac - 11/03/2013 08:54:34 PM 688 Views

Re: Do or do not....

Joel - 12/03/2013 02:19:56 AM 908 Views

Also Tom's remark's on the CMB make it pretty definitely not numerical Isaac - 10/03/2013 04:21:55 AM 688 Views

Hmm... actually, that d20 COULD be a "d200." Joel - 11/03/2013 03:39:52 PM 876 Views

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<quote id="273688">
<quote id="273682"><quote id="273675"><quote id="273670">Odds are not favorable to a sign-value notation system as opposed to a positional value notation system thinking to use 2d10 to come up with '42'. I can't recall if they were sign or positional, but I would guess in roman numerals a large value with ten sided dice would be more likely to be created by thinking to paint two dice with a I, II, III, IV, V, X, L, C, D, and M each and adding them up, which wouldn't give you an even spread from smallest to highest value. To recognize how superfluous a d100 is you'd have to have a positional notation system, the base, 10 or otherwise, wouldn't matter. They could do it anyway but it would be a hell of a lot less obvious and sufficiently weird and counter-intuitive that it wouldn't likely show up in casual gaming. If base 6 is your system, you probably would have the 2d10 for 00-99 concept in the games rather than 2-12 bell curve on 7 we use, for instance. If your number system is sign or tally you'd like as not just roll more dice for bigger numbers and shrug off random distribution.
</quote>
From what I found at Wikipedia just now, evidently ancient Egypt had:

1) A hieroglyphic number set for engraving, with ONLY symbols for 0, 1/2, 3/4 and the powers of 10 through 1,000,000 arranged as nonpositional tallies,

2) hieratic set for papyri, with symbols for each ordinal number AND their multiples by 10, 100 and 1000, and

3) a Demotic set developed in the middle of the last millenium BC, on which I have seen little detail.

The die in the article looks to be inscribed in Greek, which further complicates things because it seems there was both Demotic (Egyptian) and demotic (Greek which has descended as the official language of modern Greece.)  To top it all off, I found one journal publication available online claiming Golden Age Greece probably borrowed its number system from Demotic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_numerals
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/Ancient-Africa/egyptTOgreek.html

In the first two systems d100 would still be superfluous, but could not be replaced by two identical d10; each die would need a wholly different symbol set (unless they just said, "screw it: This other d10 is a d10-100 now.";)) It looks very likely, however, that the die in the article uses the third (assuming it is meant to depict numbers, not letters,) and I have no idea how that one worked, so maybe Tom can weigh in and enlighten us.

<quote id="273670">As to what the hell they used them for, it is probably fair to note that divination vs game can be fairly vague to the point of irrelevance, ditto teaching and games, since our ancestors knew and practiced the concept of Edu-tainment just as we do. If the things were reasonably cheap to make they probably would end up being used for tons of stuff.</quote>
Yeah, it is that speculation that is so intriguing (and I did consider the short road from divination to game, or vice versa.) They could be naming cubes for all we know. I am reasonably confident without checking there is not a "valid" Egyptian name for all combinations of Egyptian hyroglyphs, but then again the Bengals used to have a receiver named Chad Ochocinco, so.... *shrugs*
</quote>
Well it is too much for me to ponder, I wouldn't mind knowing which system they were using but once language gets into things my brain shuts down. Gabriel's a classic's guy so he might be able to tell</quote>
I have to be honest, I have never really understood that whichever direction it went; probably why my SAT Math and Verbal scores were within 20 points of each other. Math is just another language; it simply uses numbers instead of letters, conjugations, declensions etc. instead of addition, multiplication etc. Cryptology is at least as much math as language, even though it primarily deals with the latter, and much the same is true of the dreaded story problems. I am not saying I am some kind of polymath; I suck at pretty much EVERYTHING related to art, can only draw a straight line if you tell me to draw a sin wave, am mediocre at best with foreign languages and have the people skills of a rock (you may have noticed... :blush:) but liberal arts baffling math/natural science whizzes (and the converse) has always baffled ME.

A more relevant case in point:  It is not even certain language DOES get into this; evidently Ancient Greeks and Egyptians often mapped numbers to letters, using one symbol set for both and relying on context to clarify which.  Pretty common ancient practice, from what I can tell, and much of why numerology has been around so long.  You are probably aware scholars STILL debate whether certain OT character strings represent nouns or numbers, because it COULD be either, and the context does not unambiguously reveal which.  I am less surprised so many cultures did it then than that so few do it now.

Hopefully one of our resident Classics and/or Archeological scholars can pop in soon and clarify the matter as much as possible. I, at least, still have far more questions than answers about this, which is much of the fascination, so even the smallest amount of reliable information would be a welcome addition and improvement. Kind of like the guy with the 340,000 year old chromosome (due to my massive mental block with biology. :()
</quote>

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