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Not sure I agree. Datakim Send a noteboard - 23/11/2010 03:43:00 PM
I don't think Rand is lying or hiding something.


We know that Rand truly intends to break the seals. That is the only thing we really do know however, since we did not get any proper POV's from Rand in this book.


He wants to break the seals, because he is realistically looking at the state of the world and has reached the inevitable conclusion: right now, the world barely stands a chance, and every day that passes, the Shadow weakens it more. Rand feels he's taken too long to reach his epiphany. If he wants the world to even stand a chance, he has to precipitate the LB right now. If he waits and dither, as he was forced to do in the WOS, the world is doomed.


But why one month? Why not two? Or one month and two weeks. It seems strangely arbitary that Rand is in such a rush, especially since he CAN now protect the world from the DO to an extent. Yes, the world is starving, but I do not get the feeling from the books that the situation has reached absolutely critical point yet. I do not deny that the longer Rand waits, the more people will die, but opening the bore will only make the situation worse by increasing the DO's power in the world. Unless ofcourse Rand has a plan or some other reason to believe that now is the time. If so, then breaking the seals WOULD make sense. But as far as we know, there is no plan?


He told Nynaeve so much, after witnessing a chunk of reality in Tear simply vanishing.... Rand knows he's already reached the point in the war not when he tried to get his plan accepted and Latra opposed it, but the time when LTT decided he could wait anymore and went forward without women, because the Shadow was about to win and dithering meant losing, whereas his plan gave the world a chance.


Certainly, but the point is that Lews Therin HAD a plan. Granted, it was not a perfect plan but it was a plan and it worked. However the impression we get from Rand and his request to Min to help him figure out what to do is that, unlike LTT in AoL, he does not really have a full plan put together yet. That is why his insistence and rush to break the seals feels so strange.


The pivotal point is the decision to wait one more month. Rand's logic would make him break the seals right now... but he doesn't yet have the solution to seal the Bore. That's why he's waiting. He's given himself one more month to come up with something, and trusts that he will, that Min will find something etc.. He's given Egwene and the world a month to prepare for TG at the same time.


So basically, you are saying that Rand planned to wait a month in order to come up with an actual plan? Either that, or to give Egwene and the White Tower time to do the work for him. I agree that if a plan was developed in that month, then this would make sense. However, do we have any indication that he did find something? From the way people were talking around Callandor before the meeting with the borderlanders, it seems to me that Rand&co are no closer to understanding what to do. And I also got no impression that Egwene has any actual plan either, she is just opposing Rand because she feels that breaking the seals would be insane. What happens if the meeting comes, and no one has a plan? Will Rand change his mind then, realising that despite everything they need just a bit more time to figure things out? We know from the one POV of his that we did get that the answer is no. Rand intends to break the seals regardless of what happens at the meeting apparently, even if there is no plan at all. Why?!?


One more month... that's what Rand has judged the world can sustain before he has no choice but to break the seals and trust to faith in the Wheel and the Creator's wisdom if he has not come up with a viable plan by then. Having no plan yet wouldn't matter then, as Rand judges if they wait more than a month, it will be too late, the Pattern and the forces of the Light will be to weak to win without a miracle.


Children are still playing and having fun in the black tower. There are no dead bodies that have died from hunger lying on the streets. People are still gambling and carousing in the inns. Heck, just one month ago when Rand was in Ebou Dar, people were just going on their daily lives and it did not look that they even truly understood that the end had come.

There is starvation yes, but it has not reached epic proportions yet. There are bubbles of evil, and they are increasing in power yes, but breaking the seals will just make them worse. I just do not see that the situation has reached the point you suggest. There is still some time. Jumping from the cliff in the hopes that he will learn to fly seems stupid to me, if there is still a little time left in which to perhaps build a parachute.


I wouldn't trust the bit from LTT's memories about the Creator abandoning the world. That doesn't fit with what the Forsaken have said about LTT reeking of piety, for one thing. That could be LTT on a bad day, a moment where he lost faith and despaired, and believed that Elan Morin might have it half right. Or that might also be LTT's memories "tainted" by Moridin, as this paragraph fitted like a glove what we know of Elan Morin's beliefs. Rand almost quoted his theory about the Pattern being a prison of misery for the souls before his epiphany on DM. Elan Morin got named the Destroyer of Hope for good reasons.

Post-DM Rand/LTT is a very different man, and his faith in the Creator seems very strong. You cannot believe in your role as the Creator's champion, gain a metaphysical understanding of your purpose as a ta'veren, have faith in the Pattern and at the same time believe the Creator cares nothing for Creation and has moved on... The Wheel and the Pattern, ta'veren, the champion... a man of faith wouldn't fear the Creator doesn't care... he knows he does, he's the living proof that the Creator cares, and took a hand in the fight. Rand himself is his Hand in this fight. There are even some signs that Rand has possibly become something like the Creator's Shaidar Haran.


Maybe. This is actually one possibility that has occurred to me. As I have already said, my problem is that it just seems foolish to break the seals now, when there does not seem to be a plan of action in place yet. Rands (and yours) words about the danger of waiting are valid yes, but I simply do not get the feel yet that the world has yet reached the point of no return. Closing to it yes, but there is still time, especially now that Rand and his three girls can slow the DO's power even more in major population centers.

Your theory about Rand simply not caring that he does not have a plan in place, because the Creator will provide also seems a bit strange to me. Does Rand really have any reason to believe that the Creator will? Has the Creator ever shown any sign of directly interfering in the world? It is one thing to believe that the Creator exists out there, it is quite another to blindly jump off a cliff in the hope that the Creator will choose this time to interfere and catch you.

LTT was a dragon too. He was the "lights champion" aswell, but he DID develop a plan of action rather than relying on blind faith. When he led the strike at SG, he had his plan, the seals and he knew what to do. He did not just go to SG with no idea what to do and hope that something would come up.

Still, I admit we don't actually know whats going on in Rands mind at this point. Rand does seem to have gained some abilities that I presume not even LTT had. So maybe he actually HAS some real idea on what to do. Or maybe, as you say, he has become the Creators version of Shaidar Haran and he is actually in some kind of mental communication with the Creator himself and he really does have some good reason to have faith that no plan is required and that the Creator will save everyone. But without that, breaking the seals now without knowing what to do next seem madness to me.

So either Rand is mad afterall, he really does have some real proof that we don't yet know that the Creator will directly help them and that there is no need to have a plan of action, or there is some other reason that the seals MUST be broken now, despite the fact that this will only INCREASE the decay of the world.

If you were Egwene, Elayne or one of the kings/rulers in the world that have come to the meeting at the end of the book, to hear what Rand intends to do, and all he can say is:

"I intend to break the seals, and make things much worse in the world. I don't actually have any idea on what I should do after that, but don't worry, I am confident that the Creator will do something to save us all, even if he has never shown _any_ signs that he will. I am his champion afterall, so why would I need to figure out what to do for myself."

Would you support Rand, or would you think he has finally gone completely insane and try to stop him?

Maybe that won't happen. Maybe Rand will instead reveal that he truly has become the Creators avatar in the world, and the he knows EXACTLY what to do in order to repair the prison. If that is the case, then breaking the seals now would ofcourse make perfect sense. But if this is the case, then WHY did Rand have to ask Min to help him figure out what to do? How is it possible that the "Hand of the Creator in the world" has to beg his girlfriend to tell him what to do?

See why I am trying to come up with alternate explanations for why Rand is in such a rush to blindly break the seals?
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