OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. - Edit 3
Before modification by Shannow at 10/12/2010 12:06:42 PM
The evidence can best be pieced together as an overall picture, like a puzzle, that is reconstructed from a multitude of bits and pieces spread across the books.
Of course it can. And I've seen nothing that suggests to me that, say, Linda's ranking at the 13th Depository (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html#chart) is less accurate than yours.The weakest Aes Sedai - Dagian - is approximately one third the strength of the strongest Third Age Aes Sedai - Moiraine, Lelaine, Romanda, Siuan and Elaida.
So if you make Dagian a 10 (to use a round figure), then Moiraine would be a 30.
Why a ten? Why not, say, a 20?Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined. There are two contradictory quotes on Amys strength, but the most realistic one puts her about 1 level below Moiraine, but still stronger than most modern Aes Sedai.
Melaine is weaker than Amys, but still above average for an Aes Sedai.
So, a strength of 50-55 would be accurate for Egwene in this context.
Why a 50-55? Why not a 70?Egwene herself makes it clear that there is a big gulf between herself and Moghedien. She says she stands no chance against Moghedien. That's from her own mouth.
So, if Egwene is sitting at around 50, then Moghedien has to be so much stronger than her that there can be no hope of Egwene standing a chance against her. That means Moghedien has to be at around 65 at the weakest.
That does not indicate a big gulf. Particularly if she's thinking about the kind of duel Nynaeve and Moghedien had in TSR, where they're simply throwing their entire strength back and forth with no finesse at all, in which case a 51, ceteris paribus, would always defeat a 50.Moghedien is the weakest of the Forsaken
This is, honestly, debatable.Nynaeve easily still had 25-30% of her strength still to GROW at the time that she equaled Moghedien. I don't think anyone can really dispute that.
When you're just pulling that number out of your ass, of course we can. At the same time, we know that Alivia is CONSIDERABLY stronger than Nynaeve.
That judgment was made in WH8, less than a year after you think Nynaeve still has 30% left to grow. We have no way of knowing what "considerably" means.So there has to be enough room above Nynaeve to adequately incorporate these strength levels as well.
And there is. But it does not necessitate your leaps and bounds between levels of strength.Incidentally, Linda's chart converts to this on a hundred-point scale:
100 Lanfear
95 Cyndane/Alivia
90 Graendal
86 Nynaeve (full)/Semirhage
81 Mesaana
76 Moghedien
71 Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha
67 Cadsuane
62 Meilyn/Karene
57 Elaida/Romanda/Lelaine/Moiraine/Siuan (old)
52 Amys
48 Anaiya
43 Delana
38 Alanna
33 Chesmal
29 Adeleas
24 Siuan (new)
19 Daigian
14 below novice
10 below novice
5 Morgase
If Amys is 52, then Egwene would have to be around 100, since Aviendha says Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined, and Melaine is stronger than most Aes Sedai. That means either Egwene's placing of 70-odd is too low, or Amys is way too high.
That alone pulls the entire list apart, as Dagian's strength has to be revised down significantly, since she is about one third as strong as Moiriane, and Moiraine can no longer be on 57.
RJ says Egwene is a step up from Moiraine's level, and the female Forsaken are a step up from Egwene's level. Since Amys is almost as strong as Moiraine, and Egwene is close to twice as strong as Amys, that means that this "step" RJ is talking about is close to a doubling in strength from Moiraine to Egwene.
That would suggest that the step up from Egwene to female Forsaken should be of similar magnitude.
Now, this can only mean one of two things, it is either a similar PROPORTIONATE increase (e.g. close to doubling of strength) or a similar absolute increase, in which case the absolute difference between Moiraine and Egwene should also be the absolute difference between Egwene and the female Forsaken.
Since we know that Moiraine is equal to 3 Dagians, and that Egwene is apparantly just under double Moiraine's strength, that means that the step up from Moiraine to Egwene is approximately 2 to 2.5 Dagians stronger than Moiraine.
That means that at the very least, we are looking at a gap of 2 to 2.5 Dagians between Egwene and the female Forsaken.
That therefore means the following, in simple terms:
Dagian = 1 Dagian
Moirain = 3 Dagians
Egwene = 5 Dagians
Moghedien = 7 Dagians
Clearly, if it is a 100 point scale, then Dagian cannot be a 20. She can also not be a 15, else Moghedien would be a 105, and we know there are many levels above Moghedien.
In fact, we know that Nynaeve had maybe 20-30% of growth left above Moghedien's level, and that Nynaeve at full potential would still have 6 women above her on the list, according to BS.
Clearly, the evidence does not make it feasible for Dagian to be much higher than 10.