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Big debates yes, but never really a consensus. Opinions were always divided. DomA Send a noteboard - 15/12/2010 01:34:55 AM
What was the voice that was heard at the end of eye of the world? I thought it was the creator?


I remember some people bringing up that he couldn't touch their world directly such as the DO but at the same time I think the consensus was that RJ wrote it as the Creator before decided he couldn't get directly involved.


There was never a big consensus on this, as it's easily brushed aside: the notion that the Creator is not directly involved is already present in EOTW, meaning if there's a divine intervention at the end, this "apparent contradiction" is there on purpose. Significantly, RJ always said who spoke to Rand at the end of Creation and why and if the Creator is involved is a big RAFO. Those answers are coming in AMOL.

The Voice in EOTW told Rand he was the Chosen One and only he could save the world... if he chose to. That's the key: down the line, Rand would have to make this choice that Creation ought to be saved, that the Last Battle had to be fought. The whole thing rather speaks against this being an intervention from Shai'tan - what would be the purpose of telling Rand about this choice, and warning him the fate of the world is in his hands... without even tempting him or planting the notion somwhere that this fight was a lost cause - as is usually Shai,tan's way, and his Minions's, especially Elan Morin?

Rand already had accepted he was TDR after TGH.. but he had yet to make the choice to indeed be the Champion of the Light in truth, and fight the LB as the Champion had to (and not the way he was about to fight the LB earlier in TGS, ensuring if it was a victory it might be as bad as a defeat for the world after him).

That choice, Rand made only on Dragonmount, the fate of the world hanging in the balance: one path lead to Rand destroying the world - or letting Shai'tan destroy it, the other path lead to accepting Creation and the Pattern as they stand, accepting he is the Chosen One. In short, a complete and genuine profession of faith in the Light.

We see the result in TOM with "new Rand". He seems directly invested by the Light now, much the way Shaidar Haran is invested with the Shadow.

Shai'tan didn't leave a choice like this to Shaidar Haran. He stole the soul and body of that Fade to invest a part of his power and will in him, and walk around Creation. His Hand.

It seems the Creator rather insisted that his Champion decided to be the Champion, and decided the fight had to happen, before he invested himself in Rand. Rand's increase in power in TOM, the moment he made the choice, is rather obvious.

I've also pointed out after TGs that we've now learned the True Power is Shai'tan. It seems extremely likely the mirror observation is also true: the One Power is the Creator., his essence The OP drives the WoT, and the Pattern, the fabric of reality, is woven of saidar and saidin. The consequence is obvious: Creation and everything in it is the Creator. The True Source (of everything, the Origin), the Light (of the OP), the Creator... all different appellations of the same divine being. When Shai'tan attacks the Pattern, he attacks directly his Enemy. The consciousness of the Creator is quite possibly divided into every soul. Rand is elected as the soul who had to make the final choice and to guide Creation in the battle, a soul thread, powefully ta'veren, which the Wheel can use to tie all the rest of Creation with.

The other reason why the Creator "can't get involved" would also be obvious: Shai'tan barely shares his essence. He is essentially whole, and creates very little. The Creator rather used most of his essence to make Creation and every soul in it. To fight the DO the way the DO fights him, the Creator would have to gather his consciousness and his essence... in effect he would destroy Creation and merge all souls into One again (as presumably was the state of thing before the moment of Creation) in order to fight directly with Shai'tan on the cosmic scale, like when he imprisoned him. Instead, the Creator made Rand, as both the judge and leader-saviour of Creation. Rand has made his choice now, - and it's perhaps the most personal and important part of his role as Champion, and he's become a beacon of hope for Creation, and his ta'veren effect works unhindered now, gathering the rest of Creation behind him. In this perspective, it would be quite wrong to say the Creator isn't involved. The Creator is rather under constant assault, and all parcels of him are involved in the Last Battle, because Rand made the choice the world would fight it. Rand made the choice even for "The Creator".

Could The Creator manifest himself in Creation? I think he can (though it seems I might be right the Creator is a She, a Great Mother, in opposition to Shai'tan, the Lord.. the Shienaran in TGH believed as much, calling Creation "The Mother";). There may be a hint of this in TOM. Who's Nakomi? Why did she nudge Aviendha in the right direction and sent her thoughts on the real issue: what do the Aiel want their future to be? What was this bizarre "miracle" that suddenly made Aviendha see the future the Aiel with their current choices were heading for? What's the relation to Aviendha's Talent to "read ter'angreal". It is even what her Talent is, or is it greater Gift barely emerging, a Talent to see the purpose of things and people she gets in contact with?

The name Nakomi may very well, in fact rather probably, have be created after the character of Nokomis, from Native American mythology (a large source of inspiration behind the Aiel). Nokomis is the Great Mother, the Creator in the the Obidjwa religion. She can appear as a guiding spirit (in the form of an Elder/grand mother), walking the world but not really of this world.

WHat happened to Aviendha with Nakomi is strikingly similar to what happened to Rand at the end of TEOTW. All Nakomi seems to have done is make Aviendha conscious important choices were ahead of her, that would determine the future of the Pattern after the Last Battle (Rand's job is to win the LB, but it's up to others to decide the fate of the next Age after it). By the end of the experience, Aviendha reached an epiphany like Rand: she categorically refused the future she foresaw, and decided to be the instrument through which this future would be averted. She made this choice, and she decided she'd convinced the Aiel to change their path. How? She doesn't yet know, but it seems obvious the Aiel have to forsake war and become the agents of Peace they used to be. This is all terribly similar in nature to the intervention of the Creator with Rand in EOTW, and this leads me to bellieve Nakomi was a divine manifestation, a twisting of reality by the Creator to make this "woman" appear to Aviendha. Aviendha didn't realize it, but it's far more than the fate of the Aiel which is at stake: this outcome of the LB concerns the whole world. The whole world was involved in this war, where the Seanchan proclaimed themselves "the Light" and all who opposed their Empire forcibly were the Shadow... A Shadow without any Shai'tan. Even worse, it's the Aiel who threw the nations in this war. It sounds very much like the choice that will determine the new Age is in the Aiel's hands. That seems to be their purpose: they are to Heal themselves, and heal the whole world, of War after the LB. After Creation spent this era fighting for its survival, it will have to remember there is peace. It seems to be the final purpose of the Aiel, and why it was vital the Way of the Leaf survived, and to survive it had to be abandonned by most Aiel for millenia, because the Way of the Leaf isn't for a world with Shai'tan in it. It is an ideal to strive for in a world free of the Dark One once more. The Da'shain have to return, to become of symbol of this ideal. That's the choice in front of Aviendha: either the Aiel make the leap and become a symbol of peace and hope, or they keep to their warrior ways and influence the whole world into becoming "warriors" (as they already do.. just look at Cha Faile), to become like them Dedicated to War. And by and large, it seems the world post TG wants peace - even if it means the enforced peace by the sword of the Seanchan: most nations chose the Seanchan, abandonning the Aiel, the White Tower and the Asha'man to their fate.

With the story entering its "endgame", Nakomi could even be a more concrete "divine intervention" of a new kind, and we'll soon see more "weird" Guidance, in various forms: for some like Perrin it's almost an instinct that things are right or wong/unatural. For others, it's viewings that are rather warnings about what can't be averted and must be accepted. Of course, there are Dreams, about possibilities, and leading to choices. Who's guiding Egwene with Dreams that lead her to make choices but the Creator anyway? Who's sending the Foretellings/Prophecies if not the Creator? The Wheel? But what's the Wheel if not the cosmic automated guding system created and programmed by the Creator?










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Voice heard by Rand (spoiler for those who haven't read EotW) - 14/12/2010 10:31:25 PM 1652 Views
I love the spoiler warning! *NM* - 14/12/2010 10:47:43 PM 477 Views
Lol spoiler warning indeed - 14/12/2010 10:56:27 PM 988 Views
=) Well he sure looked surprised - 14/12/2010 11:01:06 PM 950 Views
Unless that's what he wants you to think ... *NM* - 14/12/2010 11:20:56 PM 436 Views
Exactly. WIFOM FTW! *NM* - 15/12/2010 07:46:29 AM 414 Views
Until I joined this board I didn't even remember that voice. *NM* - 14/12/2010 11:01:50 PM 321 Views
There was some debate about the Creator getting personally involved. - 14/12/2010 11:01:56 PM 1115 Views
Big debates yes, but never really a consensus. Opinions were always divided. - 15/12/2010 01:34:55 AM 1041 Views
Well reasoned - 15/12/2010 02:01:15 AM 843 Views
Re: Well reasoned - 15/12/2010 03:07:12 AM 975 Views
Maybe the Creator. Maybe Shai'tan. Maybe something else. RAFO. *NM* - 14/12/2010 11:26:14 PM 316 Views
There was a theory that it was Artur Hawkwing - 15/12/2010 07:31:05 AM 718 Views
I hope your kidding :p *NM* - 15/12/2010 08:40:12 PM 311 Views
Huh? Why couldn't it be? - 16/12/2010 06:25:08 AM 657 Views
Doesn't make sense. - 16/12/2010 07:46:05 PM 648 Views
Why doesn't it make sense? - 17/12/2010 02:30:06 AM 568 Views
Re: Why doesn't it make sense? - 18/12/2010 07:05:15 AM 639 Views
Re: Why doesn't it make sense? - 18/12/2010 02:51:02 PM 642 Views
But - 22/12/2010 05:49:01 PM 614 Views
Still possible. I don't think it's the Creator. - 22/12/2010 06:54:33 PM 579 Views
Head indeed - 23/12/2010 06:54:31 AM 599 Views
...EoTW spoiler warning? Really? - 15/12/2010 08:56:59 PM 981 Views
It was Bela. *NM* - 15/12/2010 08:58:22 PM 316 Views

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