One problematic issue...This assumes the Dark One cannot hold himself back once the Seals are broken - Edit 1
Before modification by Shannow at 15/12/2010 07:58:39 AM
...for Egwene to be so wrong about one of her dreams, when she has one of her instinctual moment of understanding about its meaning.
She's never been wrong before, not when "she knew". She's misinterpreted her dreams only when she didn't have that spark of insight about them (which sometimes isn't giving her the whole key... like the meaning of the Thirteen Towers beside what this dreams forewarned her Mesaana had to be dealt with or something terrible would happen, but the parts she understands, she understands. She's never wrong, no more than Min is ever wrong about the meaning of a Viewing, when "she knows".
I think you may well be right about 23 representing the leadership of the Tower, or perhaps the sum of the leaders/deciders that will oppose Rand at the meeting? Probably the former.
I think the ropes represent the opponents to the Breaking of the Seals (which could end up being the leaders of the WT alone, in the end), and the futility of their desire... the Seals are all but broken anyway, the Sealing holds by a thread. Rand's choice is basically between precipitating the LB at the moment he's ready, or letting to the Shadow the initiative of precipitating it at the time of its choosing, which complicates things (it's no wonder Demandred sees this and wished to get the remaining seals...). Rand sees the ropes, and shakes his head at the futility of those ropes, as if they alone could hold the sphere, when nothing can hold it for very long anymore.. either the sphere will be broken, of it will fall from the ropes and break "by surprise" (ie: when Shai'tan decides to make the effort to break the last seal). Egwene sees something "terrible" coming out of Rand's action, but that may be quite true: Rand breaking the seals will start the LB and it will certainly be terrible. Egwene just doesn't understand yet this terrible thing is coming no matter what. Rand will start something terrible, but if he doesn't, the Shadow will sooner than later, and it might be even more terrible then.
Rand annoucing his decision is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, by forewarning the Light he's left it no choice but to mobilize for the LB. He gave them all a month. They'll be ready - by asking them to come to the meeting with their armies to "sway Rand", Egwene has contributed to the global mobilization (and regained the traditional position of "unifier of the world" the Amyrlin is supposed to be... Rand already warned he'll guide, but won't lead..it was wise of him then to let the Amyrlin reassert her influence... there are several factions as it is... Rand's territories, Elayne's, Perrin's, the Borderlands... they'll need to stick together. As long as Egwene gives up and agrees to help.. which Rand will demand of her again, it's much better for him to let to her, and her Grays the burden of keeping the different factions together as an alliance through TG, and smoooth out their differents.. .Rand has more important things to do than this. whether the world falls apart, or whether it holds together only because the Dragon spends all his efforts keeping it together, the outcome is the same: Rand's screwed, because his time has come, he no longer can hold everyone by the hand)..
On the other hand, by his gathering he also forewarned the Shadow on which day the LB will start, and better yet, when they can count that Shai'tan's powers will suddenly be increased a lot.
They'll be ready too... as we can see with the timing of the strike against Caemlyn... but then, this also leaves Rand's opponents no choice: the LB has de facto started, whether they wanted it or not. He's baited the Shadow into striking openly at last.
Rand did not want Egwene to gather the world to discuss the matter of the seals. He said so himself... he wanted the world gathered to present his demands to agree to fight the LB.... It seems obvious Rand wants to place the leaders of the world in front of the same choice he faced: do they want Creation to go on? No? Then they might as well join the Shadow, the end will come sooner and be less painful. Yes? Well, then here's what Rand wants of the worldbefore agreeing to guide it in the LB. Guide it, not lead it, thus why he wants those who will lead the LB to be gathered. There are choices Rand intends to keep for the Champion, and those are apparently non-negotiable (which isn't the same as refusing to listen to opinions and "wisdom".. but the final choice will remain Rand). That starts with the decision to break the seals, it appears. My feeling is that Rand has become a lot more sensitive/attuned to "the Will of the Wheel", and offers no resistance whatsoever to the pull of the Web of Destiny. Therefore, there are things Rand knows must be done, and he won't fight them, nor let others stop him.
Rand's connundrum was that he felt the world was soon to reach the stage at which it had lost, and wouldn't be able to fight the LB. If the Light is to stand a chance, it needs to provoke the War, while the Shadow hasmuch to gain to dither, and keep weakening the Light more and more - when the War comes, it will be all the more easier. So one might say Rand left the Shadow no choice but to start the War, and by doing this he's leaving no choice for the Light in turn. That's already two significant differences with the War of Shadow. In the WOS, the Light let the Shadow proceed with the Collapse, and when the wolrd was sufficiently weakned, the Shadow was the first to strike, taking the Light unaware and unready. That, Rand has already averted. He's said "the war starts in one month, get ready" to both the Shadow and Light. The second major difference is that Rand didn't trap himself in a plan to strike at SG before he knew for sure who would be available to collaborate and who wouldn't. This time, he asks the women if they will join him or not before he makes his final plan, but he's not letting the women the decision to dither either. They have to make their final choice that place, that day. I think Rand might tell the world it's not a matter of supporting the Dragon or not, that it's the other way around: do the world want his help and guidance., his offered support to the world? If they do, here are his demands. If some refuse, he'll tell them to step out of his way so he can serve those who want his help. If too many refuse, he'll say "then, I will step aside and ypu'll have to fight the LB without the Dragon's guidance".
She's never been wrong before, not when "she knew". She's misinterpreted her dreams only when she didn't have that spark of insight about them (which sometimes isn't giving her the whole key... like the meaning of the Thirteen Towers beside what this dreams forewarned her Mesaana had to be dealt with or something terrible would happen, but the parts she understands, she understands. She's never wrong, no more than Min is ever wrong about the meaning of a Viewing, when "she knows".
I think you may well be right about 23 representing the leadership of the Tower, or perhaps the sum of the leaders/deciders that will oppose Rand at the meeting? Probably the former.
I think the ropes represent the opponents to the Breaking of the Seals (which could end up being the leaders of the WT alone, in the end), and the futility of their desire... the Seals are all but broken anyway, the Sealing holds by a thread. Rand's choice is basically between precipitating the LB at the moment he's ready, or letting to the Shadow the initiative of precipitating it at the time of its choosing, which complicates things (it's no wonder Demandred sees this and wished to get the remaining seals...). Rand sees the ropes, and shakes his head at the futility of those ropes, as if they alone could hold the sphere, when nothing can hold it for very long anymore.. either the sphere will be broken, of it will fall from the ropes and break "by surprise" (ie: when Shai'tan decides to make the effort to break the last seal). Egwene sees something "terrible" coming out of Rand's action, but that may be quite true: Rand breaking the seals will start the LB and it will certainly be terrible. Egwene just doesn't understand yet this terrible thing is coming no matter what. Rand will start something terrible, but if he doesn't, the Shadow will sooner than later, and it might be even more terrible then.
Rand annoucing his decision is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, by forewarning the Light he's left it no choice but to mobilize for the LB. He gave them all a month. They'll be ready - by asking them to come to the meeting with their armies to "sway Rand", Egwene has contributed to the global mobilization (and regained the traditional position of "unifier of the world" the Amyrlin is supposed to be... Rand already warned he'll guide, but won't lead..it was wise of him then to let the Amyrlin reassert her influence... there are several factions as it is... Rand's territories, Elayne's, Perrin's, the Borderlands... they'll need to stick together. As long as Egwene gives up and agrees to help.. which Rand will demand of her again, it's much better for him to let to her, and her Grays the burden of keeping the different factions together as an alliance through TG, and smoooth out their differents.. .Rand has more important things to do than this. whether the world falls apart, or whether it holds together only because the Dragon spends all his efforts keeping it together, the outcome is the same: Rand's screwed, because his time has come, he no longer can hold everyone by the hand)..
On the other hand, by his gathering he also forewarned the Shadow on which day the LB will start, and better yet, when they can count that Shai'tan's powers will suddenly be increased a lot.
They'll be ready too... as we can see with the timing of the strike against Caemlyn... but then, this also leaves Rand's opponents no choice: the LB has de facto started, whether they wanted it or not. He's baited the Shadow into striking openly at last.
Rand did not want Egwene to gather the world to discuss the matter of the seals. He said so himself... he wanted the world gathered to present his demands to agree to fight the LB.... It seems obvious Rand wants to place the leaders of the world in front of the same choice he faced: do they want Creation to go on? No? Then they might as well join the Shadow, the end will come sooner and be less painful. Yes? Well, then here's what Rand wants of the worldbefore agreeing to guide it in the LB. Guide it, not lead it, thus why he wants those who will lead the LB to be gathered. There are choices Rand intends to keep for the Champion, and those are apparently non-negotiable (which isn't the same as refusing to listen to opinions and "wisdom".. but the final choice will remain Rand). That starts with the decision to break the seals, it appears. My feeling is that Rand has become a lot more sensitive/attuned to "the Will of the Wheel", and offers no resistance whatsoever to the pull of the Web of Destiny. Therefore, there are things Rand knows must be done, and he won't fight them, nor let others stop him.
Rand's connundrum was that he felt the world was soon to reach the stage at which it had lost, and wouldn't be able to fight the LB. If the Light is to stand a chance, it needs to provoke the War, while the Shadow hasmuch to gain to dither, and keep weakening the Light more and more - when the War comes, it will be all the more easier. So one might say Rand left the Shadow no choice but to start the War, and by doing this he's leaving no choice for the Light in turn. That's already two significant differences with the War of Shadow. In the WOS, the Light let the Shadow proceed with the Collapse, and when the wolrd was sufficiently weakned, the Shadow was the first to strike, taking the Light unaware and unready. That, Rand has already averted. He's said "the war starts in one month, get ready" to both the Shadow and Light. The second major difference is that Rand didn't trap himself in a plan to strike at SG before he knew for sure who would be available to collaborate and who wouldn't. This time, he asks the women if they will join him or not before he makes his final plan, but he's not letting the women the decision to dither either. They have to make their final choice that place, that day. I think Rand might tell the world it's not a matter of supporting the Dragon or not, that it's the other way around: do the world want his help and guidance., his offered support to the world? If they do, here are his demands. If some refuse, he'll tell them to step out of his way so he can serve those who want his help. If too many refuse, he'll say "then, I will step aside and ypu'll have to fight the LB without the Dragon's guidance".
While I agree with everything you say in this post, I don't quite understand the plot premise this is based on. That is, I don't quite understand RJ/Sanderson's logic here.
It seems they are saying that if the Dark One takes a few months longer to break free completely, it will give him more time to weaken Randland with his slowly spreading corrupting presence prior to the actual launch of Tarmon Gaidon itself.
In contrast, they seem to be saying, that if Rand breaks the Seals NOW, then the world will still be slightly stronger than it would have been a few months later, and might have a slightly better chance in the Battle that follows.
But this logic is based on the assumptions that the Dark One cannot control himself. If it is to his advantage to wait a few more months to weaken the world a bit more, then why does he need the intact Seals to do this? Why not wait a bit longer in any case, even if the Seals are broken?
Or better yet, why not use the broken Seals to hasten the corrupting influence on the world, so that the world is even WEAKER by the time he actually unleashes the Trollocs in full force?
Rand's argument assumes that the Dark One is lke a massive wall of dark water, dammed up by the weakening Seals, and ready to just burst forth the moment the Seals are destroyed.
But this is not the case. This wall of dark water has a mind, it is sentient, and it is highly intelligent - more so than any mortal, I would assume.
The breaking of the Seals will not FORCE the Dark One to unleash Tarmon Gaidon. It will merely give him a CHOICE of when to do it.
He can still hold the wall of water back indefinitely should he choose to.
It seems what Rand is basically arguing is that once the Seals are broken the Dark One will not be able to resist the temptation to unleash his full force immediately.
That does not fit with the idea of a being of supposedly equal power, understanding and knowledge to the Creator.