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Re: reading now...some questions and some annoyances DomA Send a noteboard - 19/12/2010 10:40:17 PM
Ok so I just have to say it...the way Grendal survived....that was really just incredibly cheap. I mean come on....and leaving that as a mystery for one book. Not cool. What did everyone else think about this?


I think Brandon miscalculated and ruined the episode.

I don't mind Graendal surviving. It was cool. What I minded massively is this:

- The first part of the scene, the meeting of Graendal-Aran'gar, didn't belong there. It belonged in the prologue of TGS. One of my disappointements with TGS was how the prologue promised to set Graendal up against Rand, and how it failed to deliver afterward. We have to dig after speculative scrumbs between the lines to even get an idea what Graendal has done to fulfill her mission from Moridin.

Then, another disappointement was how Brandon failed to pick up the foreshadowing placed by RJ in KOD, before Aran'gar lost her place among the rebels. She had plans for Rand, she had plans to seize control somehow of Graendal's vast network of agents, and put it to uses Graendal would not approve of... Nothing at all came out of this, which is a real shame and waste because Aran'gar ended up at Graendal's palace right when Rand was facing Graendal's agents. There really should have been some devious and unexplainable moves by players in Arad Doman, leaving us totally baffled as to this was the result of Graendal's plotting or Aran'gar meddling.

This storyline should really have been handled by having the prologue scene in TGS happen a few weeks later (after Aran'gar was forced to flee), starting with Graendal arriving at Moridin's fortress, then as she left, she returned to her palace and a scene with Aran'gar (switching to her POV). Aran'gar would have wanted to know what went on at Moridin's, and Graendal would have been devious about what she was tasked to do, and Aran'gat suspicious etc.

The other shame was to move Graendal's "demise" from where it truly belonged to the beginning of TOM. The whole thing would have been awesome instead of lame had Brandon used it properly as counterpoint POV in the scene where Rand destroys Natrin's Barrow, alternating between his POV and Graendal's (or Aran'gar's, to increase suspense and not let us know too much about what Graendal was puzzling out). It could have gone this way: Rand's POV: he arrives at NB and sends him his buffoon. Aran'gar's POV: she felt Rand and raises the alarm. Grae dal announces she will receive the envoy and asks Aran'gar to send in Delana. Aran'gar is puzzled. Switch back to Rand, as the envoy returns. He balefires the palace. We see it from Aran'gar's POV as Graendal betrays her and the last thing Aran'gar sees is Graendal narrowly escaping. Switch back to Rand and Nyaneve: Graendal is dead. Switch to Graendal's POV: she's compelled Delana to compel Rand's envoy and wonders if this worked or not. She goes into hiding, not to resurface until mid-way in TOM, when she is summoned by Moridin and goes after Perrin.

The way the scenes were written and structured, Graendal's escape became anticlimatic, boring and improbable, and it totally ruined the effect no doubt intended by Jordan: this happened when Rand was going completely mad, and this was supposed to be a clear failure, where he threatened to unravel the Pattern to kill a single Forsaken, and that didn't even work. That was a very bad call by Brandon to transform something that was to count and add to the pile of things going wrong fro Rand before his epiphany, his use of the TP, the casting out of Cadsuane, his failure with Tuon, in Falme, at Bander Eban, and finally in Tear. The way he lost it and tried to kill Graendal was one of the clearest episodes of Rand "losing it", but this was undermined by not showing it for the huge failure it was, that would end with Rand leaving AD when Graendal was still alive (no need to reveal right away she was abandonning AD). It was way too late after Rand's epiphany to show Graendal survived, turning it into a cheap Hollywoodian plot twist, deprived of most dramatic purpose and meaning. It's but one of the many similar mistakes Brandon made in his structuring of the book, that piled up and ended up depriving us of much of the darkness and despair RJ had planned the first two thirds of AMOL to be. We have all the events now, it's painfully clear nearly everything was to go wrong and together seem totally desperate... Perrin was trapped in Ghealdan caught between Galad, Graendal and Slayer, Egwene was in a cell, and Rand's failure with Tuon sparked the attack on Tar Valon, Aviendha was seing at the same time a future in which the Seanchan won, the Aiel disappeared and Elayne wouldn't even rule for many years, Cairhien and Andor still divided... just as Elayne nearly died at the hands of the BA, discovering about an improbable invasion of Andor, building weapons for a post TG war against the Seanchan, planning to seize Cairhien soon... all things echoed by Aviendha's vision, and apparently doomed to fail. At the same time, people were being turned at the BT, and a second dreamspike had been activated. Mat was stuck in Caemlyn caught by the matter of Verin's letter that was to become extremely frustrating when played against the darkness in the other storylines (Just trust the woman and open the damn letter Mat, Rand is going beserk, your wife is about to attack the WT and if ever Rand needed Moiraine back it's now!!!). And then Tear and Tam, and Rand nearly destroying Ebou Dar, and right after considering putting an end to everything, with the wolves making very clear to Perrin what the stakes on DM really were.. All told in parralel, following the chronology of events, this amounted to a very, very dark acts 1 and 2 of the final book. Much darker and oppressive than the version Brandon gaves us, and he made his worst mistake by showing Rand's epiphany before he told the earlier events in Perrin's and Mat's story, and Elayne, and Aviendha, and the BT...

and then the tide turned... Egwene won the Tower and dealt a big blow to the BA (and really, the face-off with Mesaana really should have happened earlier... the very night after Egwene destroyed the BA and united the Tower, Mesaana should have striked,,, and Perrin would come witht the dreamspike, go to DM with it and witness Rand's epiphany all in one awesome episode instead of scattered stuff), Rand was having his epiphany - the huge turning point, Aviendha was a WO determined to see the foretold dark future not happening, Moiraine was turned into a red herring of a sort.. Rand didn't need her to to get out of his darkness after all, but for something else. Perrin was beating off the Shadow's attack and saving the WC, and forging the hammer of the Wolf-King. Taken all together, this stuff would have formed the biggest, most awesome edge-of-your seat climax yet to happen in WOT, overshadowing everything we had seen in earier books... and this was merely the 2/3 mark, the LB was not even officially started! Brandon has diluted the whole thing a great deal the way he decided to split the books, and worst of all, to go too far in Rand's and Egwene's storylines, which seriously undermined the threats in TOM - you read the whole book knowing in advance the tide will turn as Rand changes, and changing he would, as we have seen it, and even seen how he is afteward (another big mistake for suspense and structure, to have him and Egwene return so early in TOM). IMO, this is a very high price to pay to have a climax in TGS, when it was a book that should have ended in great darkness, most likely with Egwene in a cell and Rand leaving Arad Doman.... BS and Harriet chickened out catered tp the expectations of the fans rather than havr the courage to deliver what the story demanded, if the book was to be split.

After the rollercoaster ending of act 2, RJ seemingly intended to give us some time to digest it all and breathe a little. Act 3 would have brought Perrin and Elayne together, and send Mat to Ghenjei, Egwene and Rand met and the plan for the seals was announced. Nynaeve returned to Tar Valon, Cadsuane reintegrated Rand's entourage, the Bordermen were met and the situation diffused, Elayne moved for Cairhien. And then the problems resurfaced... Egwene was opposed to Rand's plans, the invasion began in the north but Lan finally raised the Golden Crane in truth. The situation Aviendha faces when she returns probably can be added to this, and possibly it was time to make Loial run into problems at the Stump as well. And then, the three big blows: Tuon prepares to move everything North for a final strike at TV as (presumably) the whole Tower is going to Merrilor, Taim has started to deal with the last Lightsiders at the BT by turning them to the Shadow, and the content of Verin's letter is revealed, when Mat is caught at Ghenjei and Elayne and her armies are away to Rand's meeting.. and it's too late, despite what Elayne learned, and what Verin forewarned Mat of, the Shadow manages to invade Caemlyn by the Waygate, and the city pays dearly both for Verin's too great love of mystery and Mat's too often uncontrolled mistrust of Aes Sedai. Verin's sudden failure would have had more dramatic impact if it had happened not long after her success, her partial success, in TV, as the chronology had it happen, not a whole book apart.

Did anyone predict in an official theory who messana was hiding as in the white tower? I loved that whole set up, but it seemed somewhat like we hadn't seen her before but the name was familiar..


Oh yeah. Danelle had long been the most obvious and favourite suspect of the greater number of people (she was a little-known loner, who mysteriously joined Alviarin and Elaida's scheme to topple Siuan, even participating in Siuan's arrest and bringing mercenaries disguised as masons to the Tower (she was overseeing repairs to the Library).. She was on Elaida's council at first, which is how Mesaana knew every last word said there and could ensure Alviarin was reporting properly - and once she was sure, she stopped attending, let herself be pushed aside... Alviarin noticed it, but thought Danelle a dreamy loser who had not realized she's been pushed aside by her betters.... Bringing in mercenaries is what turned the whole coup d'état of Elaida into a battle when they attacked the warders who tried to free Siuan, and the Younglings joined the fight. With her meddling, Mesaana "ruined" Elaida's coup, which no doubt was intended and expected to go peacefully, with the Blue Ajah not finding allies (all Ajahs had supporters of Elaida in the Hall) and forced to accept what happened.) . Danelle was "so obvious" it was a bit like Graendal and Asmodean, and people who love overly out-of-the-blue solutions (eg: Slayer killed Asmodean) disliked Danelle as a suspect because she was "too obvious" and thought her, like Graendal, a red herring, forgetting RJ tended to be very "obvious" when he left a few clues... Ingtar freed Fain, Selene was Lanfear, one of the three sisters really was BA and really killed Adeleas, Graendal really killed Asmodean, Galad was really Berelain's man in white, Mat really gave up an eye for Moiraine, Noal was Jain, Verin really had a plan and so on and so on. It's not with that sort of things RJ caused surprises, it's with what we don't expect is a mystery, or important. The Ashan'darei, the fact Perrin was never in real danger of losing himself to the wolves, the Hammer from Tear not really being the final Hammer of the WK, Verin was BA despite evidence she wasn't because she was following the three Oaths in her POV and other things, and so on.
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Especially that one... - 20/12/2010 12:33:46 AM 883 Views
Re: reading now...some questions and some annoyances - 19/12/2010 12:40:32 PM 532 Views
Pretty sure RJ plotted Graendal surviving. - 19/12/2010 09:43:48 PM 503 Views
Oh yeah... - 19/12/2010 11:52:30 PM 620 Views
Re: reading now...some questions and some annoyances - 20/12/2010 12:10:11 AM 506 Views
Read Dom's post below - 20/12/2010 12:37:29 AM 417 Views
Re: Read Dom's post below - 20/12/2010 04:40:13 AM 654 Views
Re: Read Dom's post below - 20/12/2010 09:16:22 AM 692 Views
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Re: Read Dom's post below - 20/12/2010 10:13:04 AM 686 Views
Re: reading now...some questions and some annoyances - 19/12/2010 10:40:17 PM 688 Views
Excellent analysis! - 20/12/2010 03:52:00 PM 453 Views

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