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Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective gban007 Send a noteboard - 03/12/2013 05:14:57 AM

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She did not "force" Nynaeve to tell the truth, Nynaeve volunteered the truth, and Egwene threatened to force her to drink the tea out of spite because Nynaeve had made her drink it when she had legitimate authority over Egwene. And it was not a direct lie to Egwene, the way Egwene acted as if it had been, but rather a face-saving thing with the Wise Ones. A few hundred miles short of the extent of lying to the Wise Ones about being an Aes Sedai and breaking your word not to go into T'A'R without them. Note that Nynaeve, faced with the same dilema of necessity versus the Wise Ones' demands, refused to give a promise she had no intention of keeping.

The incident was from the PoV of the highly-scrupulous Nynaeve, who was feeling guilt at having acted a tiny bit like Egwene, so Egwene's acts are not shown in an objective light, and she comes across as more righteous than she was, seen through the lens of Nynaeve's guilt.


While I do agree about the difference in magnitude, while Nynaeve refused to give a promise she had no intention of keeping, she also wasn't put in a position where if she didn't give the promise, she wouldn't have got what she deemed necessary, whereas for Egwene if she didn't make the promises to the Wise Ones, she wouldn't have been able to learn more about the world of dreams.
While it is fair to say she should have accepted that, and decided not to find out more, once she decided she did want to find out more, there was only one way to get that information.
The lie regarding Aes Sedai began as trying to shore up Rand and Moiraine's authority, with Elayne and Nynaeve also pretending to be Aes Sedai, which then got to the point she didn't feel comfortable telling the truth given how much time had passed with the lie. However, she did admit to it in the end, though see below with my views on the price she pays.
Rather than Egwene teaching her a lesson, it was more that she was remembering the consequences of surrendering the moral high ground through dishonesty. That's a lesson no one "needs" to teach Egwene, because rather than scrupulously make amends as soon as she realizes her fault, she waits until she has no further use for the people she has lied to, and handwaves the lies away as long as it is convenient to do so.

Not sure I entirely agree, it is potentially losing the moral high ground, but that is only internally, much of the dishonesty / potential dishonesty for Nynaeve wouldn't have been found out by the people she was dishonest to, it was only her affected, and her feeling she would lose moral high ground, and so not be able to deal with others as effectively.
With Egwene, the issue more is that she seemed to follow the Aiel Wise Ones in her actions / thinking. The Wise Ones are the first group of people advising / aiding her that I think started strengthening her flaws.
Their views tended to be do what was necessary, and pay the price for it. However, with Aiel, the way of paying the price was always physical, and even if made Gai'shan, there never seemed to be any remorse on the Aiel side, if anything sometimes it was almost pride to take the punishment earned.
Egwene followed this, always happy to take the physical punishment earned, but never really showing remorse.
So she was spoiled, not trained in moral behavior, and this is a person who should be grabbing for power with both hands at every opportunity? The reasons and origins of Egwene's misbehavior are plausible and solid. It does not change the fact of her misbehavior and the current reality of her character, which are deplorable.

While her misbehaviour / current reality may be deplorable, if we accept that the reasons / origins are plausible and solid, and nothing has been done to show Egwene the error of her ways, why would we expect her to change?
The issue more is those around her encouraging her to keep going for more power.
Siuan is a good example of this, and in many ways I think Siuan has similar flaws to Egwene, the lie about the Red Ajah aiding Logain, to ensure the Salidar Aes Sedai continued to rebel because Siuan couldn't stand the lawfully elected Elaida remaining in charge being a good case in point.
The fact that Siuan thought that Egwene would make a great Amrylin, and told Egwene so, also reflects that she only encouraged Egwene's behaviour.
The other Aes Sedai tended to take a similar view, or tried to manipulate her so obviously, they couldn't help but ensure she carried on trying to strengthen her power and remove their manipulation.
In many respects, I think Egwene embodied the majority of Aes Sedai at that point, just didn't have the experience / age to be able to hide / soften it more, and is reflective of why I think the Aes Sedai as a whole were a pretty deplorable lot by the time of the Eye of the World.
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Well... - 04/12/2013 05:54:16 AM 696 Views
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I quite enjoyed that scene - 05/12/2013 05:32:38 AM 640 Views

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