Even Lews Therin Telamon, the ghost of a previous dragon who would have looked Rand square in the eyes but would be two hands taller than Lanfear before he went mad centuries ago, only to still live on Rand's mind - even though everyone reading this already knows those facts very well - agreed. Apparently, Lews Therin was either an easily-shocked combatant in and survivor of world-wide holocaust, or being mad made Telamon easily shocked by people who act hard and yet whine in their internal monologue...

Rand has had thoughts that spell out fairly like that over and over and over and over again. You may be experiencing what I realized a few nights ago when I remembered fully the details of how Min got involved in Rand's dismemberment.

I suddenly realized I'd been playing off my memory of the plucky, resourceful, and super-nifty Seer girl who stuck her neck in trouble and bristled as she did what she had to do in her fight for Rand. But thinking back over the actions and PoVs of the last 5+ books, I realized that my character was quite different. And that there was good reason to be a little shocked.

With Rand, the intensity of his desire to wallow and punish himself has been around almost since the mantle of responsibility was laid on his shoulders. Was it the death-apathetic Lan's teachings? The good Warder was a father figure to him in the wake of "losing" his (blood) ties to the past. I have to say that Rand's been remarkably active - and proactive - and effective in pursuit of his necessary goals & moves toward TG and victory over Shaitan's smelly butt. Yet it's rough when a lot of the time spent inside his mind is spent in self-willed misery, without even a thought for calm consideration or a change of perspective.

Really, it would take an interesting number of "return key" presses to jot down chapter and book listings of: the number of times that Rand apparently feels sick at the thought of himself; at what he's become; and/or how he has to behave; and/or what Rand al Thor/the Dragon has to do.

My guess is 17? More? Could it be closer to 30? or 40?

If you watch "Lost," there was an entire season in which one group of people were in constant danger while another had received the salvation they had sought. For the sake of narrative and such, the latter group was often depicted in the midst of their anxiety/unhappiness. Yet there were no longer in the same life-or-death jam that they always experienced with the former group, nor were their actions mere PTSD.

That sentiment of unhappiness and self-destructiveness was expressed so strongly and so frequently that the saved group just came off as whiners. Whiners to the degree that you almost want their story to end or jump to the next big moment in the arc immediately. Viewers feel this because after a certain saturation point, the writer would be blessing you by showing the whiners wake up in the morning and use the WC. You'd get 10+ seconds of people not acting tortured or torturing themselves. Damn do I digress, but it's the same point applied to a well-known show!

It can't be easy for our hero, and self-doubt is inevitable (if not necessary). Still, Rand's capacity for masochism and fairly willful self-infliction of pain is a sticking point, especially since there are solid reasons for him to respond to adversity and upheaval-of-innocence a little bit better.

I love these books with all my heart. I figure that since the series expanded 47,000 times larger than RJ ever expected, certain things just come out this way. I can't say that I think the book is written by someone who doesn't know people/psychology or write well - the good author was a smarter man than I might ever by. But parts of this behavior - not clearly included for especial reasons (satire, meta-philosophy, didactic purposes) - long since started to jar against my suspension of disbelief.

It's similar to how many people were beyond-frustrated by Elayne's accession to the throne (she's still uncrowned, right?), or Rand's moves in aCoS, tPoD...

I can't be annoyed when RJ clearly says something without spelling it out or having a character announce it - he has and I've missed several though I'm supposedly bright. But I wanted to take a moment to ask psychological questions of my fellow board-members about something that is past the point of grating...