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that is very kind of you mierin sedai - 17/01/2003 03:06:16 PM

As I said, despite the fact that the United Nations is an impotent body in terms of establishing or enforcing international law, as though such a thing existed, I will give it the benefit of the doubt.

the reason the UN is impotent are the vetos, majorly the USA, but also the other four. That could be dealt with, but is not

First, the Versailles Treaty did NOT pave the way for Hitler. It was a convenient excuse that he used to his advantage. Besides, had Britain and France threatened war in 1935 for Versailles violations Hitler would have been dead in the water. He had no tanks, a pathetic air force and no means to defend his country. "Constructive peace-building" is an empty phrase that means nothing without a resolute threat of imminent war. Oh, and you said "Bombing is no solution". I agree. Bombing is insufficient. A full-scale ground invasion and occupation of Iraq is needed.

We disagree here on the interpretation of history, then. Do you seriously Germany would have stood by without what all the other countries had while the world ran on its course? VAging war on Hitler in 1935 would have brought resentment, you can bet on it. But there is no way we can know, however. Ground invasion and occupation will turn the arab world against you in no time. You might end up with more bands like Al-Quaida. A Norwegian peace-professor said that if the USA did that, it would fall within 20 years.

In addition, the weapons inspectors DID find something yesterday, and Hans Blix has stated that Iraq has been obstructing weapons inspectors and generally not complying. Finally, there is the matter of 500 artillery shells filled with mustard gas that we know the Iraqis had in 1998 but which are unaccounted for now. The Iraqis claim that they lost the documentation. The Iraqi government has detailed documentation on everything, up to and including, as a former weapons inspector said on the news today, "the location and quantity of spare tires for army vehicles". But now they can't find 500 artillery shells with chemical weapons, or the documentation on what they did with them.

EMPTY warheads. Barely counts as "something". I do not know about the mustard gas, but it could have been used against the Kurdish population (wouldn't surprise me one bit). I am not here to defend Saddam.

Moreover, "innocent until proven guilty" is a procedural protection for Americans in United States courts. The United States is not making a court case, nor is the burden on the United States. Saddam Hussein, if he wants to have sanctions removed, has to prove that he has complied with UN Security Council resolutions. Regardless, if the United States operated under courtroom procedures in international affairs, we wouldn't have been able to attack Afghanistan for harboring al-Qaeda. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a means that the polity of citizens agreed upon and which their government respects. We have no such obligations to other nations.

So justice only counts for Americans?

On the point of Israel "flaunting resolutions", I am surprised how often people are deluded about the situation surrounding Israel. While I agree with many that Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands is in many respects an injustice, a few facts MUST be remembered. Resolutions passed against Israel have been passed under Article V of the UN Charter, which does NOT permit military enforcement. They have been non-binding resolutions expressing nothing more than condemnation. Any resolutions which would go any farther have been subjected to US veto. Resolutions passed against Iraq have been passed under Article VI of the UN Charter, which DOES permit military enforcement, and the resolutions have been binding and have threatened on numerous occasions military consequences for non-compliance.

my point: the US veto. Why protect Israel and not others? It does not make sense and creates resentment

Finally, if you want to attack the United States, please don't bring in subjective arguments such as "the USA is notorious in many parts of Europe for how badly it treats its own citizens". For example, many in Europe think the death penalty is wrong. I don't, nor does the majority of the American public. I think that the Europeans have it wrong. Europeans also think that socialized medicine and the welfare state work, despite the dismal economic growth that such ideas spawn. This is a matter of political ideology.

The welfare state does work. I live in one. And our economy is currently stronger than the American, if I am not mistaken...

Personally, I think that Europe is weak and effeminate and that within another two generations or so, "Mohammed" is going to be a common European first name and France will become the Islamic Republic of Northern Algeria. If you guys let Turkey into the EU, it might happen after just one generation.

effeminate? I hardly see that happening. Why should it?

However, my point is that whether you're right or I am, or we both are in odd ways, you can't compare the United States with Iraq in any form of moral equivalency. You can't compare a democratic republic that provides its citizens with protections of due process, free education, and equal opportunity with a brutal dictatorship that tortures its own citizens and puts on sham elections that are farcical on their face. You just can't do it. Europe and America have different visions of the future and what form of government is best, but you can't let political polemics turn the US into some sort of evil empire. I know that it's fashionable these days, but it just isn't right!

The US provides some of its citizens with protection (I will not get into the lack of welfare, as you have stated your view on this), but is it not fair that those rights should be universal, and that we should always act according to them?
I never said the US is evil. Wrong, but not evil.

On the matter of Russian...I haven't checked my mail.ru account recently. I'll have to do that this weekend and we can get back to the lessons.

wonderful I suspected as much


Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat
Dissenting voice of wotmania
Frightfully stubborn pacifist

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent




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To all peace-loving Americans - 15/01/2003 02:21:45 PM 465 Views
A Norwegian replies: - 15/01/2003 02:30:52 PM 112 Views
I know I must have misunderstood that message..... - 15/01/2003 02:33:11 PM 56 Views
Re: To all peace-loving Americans - 15/01/2003 02:39:49 PM 40 Views
Good Link, aero. *NM* - 15/01/2003 02:47:19 PM 1 Views
That was excellent! Thanks AC - 15/01/2003 02:52:10 PM 1 Views
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Thx ac nice article *NM* - 15/01/2003 03:16:48 PM 1 Views
I shall treasure those three words forever... *NM* - 15/01/2003 03:16:51 PM 1 Views
I've been thinking that same thought for ages. - 15/01/2003 03:33:54 PM 1 Views
simple.... - 15/01/2003 03:37:50 PM 1 Views
Because the first time... - 15/01/2003 03:55:47 PM 1 Views
Re: I have a theory, aero, and that is - 15/01/2003 03:55:58 PM 1 Views
Theories, reality. - 15/01/2003 03:57:24 PM 1 Views
That was the most patronising piece of #$%^ I've read in a long time - 15/01/2003 04:32:38 PM 41 Views
Once upon a time there was a mad dictator - 15/01/2003 04:42:04 PM 49 Views
The message is devoid of sincerity (not saying you are, tho, Mierin) - 15/01/2003 04:57:21 PM 34 Views
Who would flame you? You speak the truth! *NM* - 15/01/2003 05:00:11 PM 1 Views
A point that do-gooders seem to forget - 15/01/2003 05:13:30 PM 1 Views
Do people really misunderstand the electoral college? - 15/01/2003 05:24:50 PM 30 Views
A little tongue-in-cheek, but a good statement: - 15/01/2003 05:39:07 PM 15 Views
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One flaw here - 15/01/2003 06:11:24 PM 1 Views
I don't think that's entirely fair, but it's too late for me to expl y *NM* - 15/01/2003 06:14:18 PM 5 Views
my answer to you.. - 15/01/2003 06:25:52 PM 1 Views
Oh, please! - 15/01/2003 06:34:49 PM 21 Views
My answer to your answer - 15/01/2003 06:48:42 PM 1 Views
No - they ignore it altogether; it's how they make us a dictatorship *NM* - 15/01/2003 06:50:05 PM 1 Views
True... - 15/01/2003 07:01:11 PM 1 Views
of course not... we all know what it is meant for - 15/01/2003 07:04:10 PM 1 Views
Re: True... - 15/01/2003 07:10:16 PM 1 Views
Re: To all peace-loving Americans - 15/01/2003 07:14:09 PM 15 Views
No - 15/01/2003 07:19:01 PM 1 Views
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thank you meirin, some one speaks the truth *NM* - 15/01/2003 08:08:26 PM 6 Views
There's no perfect solution to the problem. - 15/01/2003 08:13:25 PM 1 Views
Sorry, double-post. *NM* - 15/01/2003 08:50:03 PM 1 Views
Hmmm . . . - 15/01/2003 09:01:26 PM 13 Views
Hmm *NM* - 15/01/2003 09:50:18 PM 1 Views
Oops *NM* - 15/01/2003 10:27:01 PM 1 Views
What no Links? *NM* - 15/01/2003 10:31:02 PM 1 Views
Re: A wonderful letter. - 15/01/2003 10:33:04 PM 30 Views
Small points. - 15/01/2003 11:35:26 PM 1 Views
Re: - 15/01/2003 11:50:15 PM 1 Views
oh, so you say... - 16/01/2003 12:46:13 AM 1 Views
you see? we cannot both be wrong... *NM* - 16/01/2003 12:47:08 AM 1 Views
huh? - 16/01/2003 12:57:32 AM 1 Views
thank you *NM* - 16/01/2003 12:58:58 AM 1 Views
when was the first time it happened? *NM* - 16/01/2003 01:00:21 AM 1 Views
who are you to... - 16/01/2003 01:02:02 AM 1 Views
though we should learn from history - 16/01/2003 01:03:41 AM 1 Views
let me see... - 16/01/2003 01:38:21 AM 1 Views
no, and that is just the point - 16/01/2003 01:45:10 AM 1 Views
allow me to repeat myself - 16/01/2003 01:48:12 AM 1 Views
lol - 16/01/2003 01:50:22 AM 1 Views
- 16/01/2003 01:54:32 AM 1 Views
*NM* - 16/01/2003 01:56:36 AM 1 Views
Re: Hmmm . . . - 16/01/2003 01:57:58 AM 1 Views
who is Spiro Agnew? - 16/01/2003 01:59:54 AM 1 Views
I stopped at that myself - 16/01/2003 02:00:45 AM 1 Views
Small points - 16/01/2003 08:47:17 AM 1 Views
UN Security Council resolutions... What a joke - 16/01/2003 09:24:18 AM 1 Views
Re: Small points. - 16/01/2003 09:49:58 AM 1 Views
Re: huh? - 16/01/2003 09:59:40 AM 1 Views
Technicalities aside... - 16/01/2003 10:13:25 AM 1 Views
Re: who is Spiro Agnew? - 16/01/2003 10:18:42 AM 1 Views
Yes. And Mierin seems to think... - 16/01/2003 10:22:52 AM 1 Views
Re: Bush V. Gore - 16/01/2003 10:26:11 AM 1 Views
I am TRYING! Next voting he will lose. *NM* - 16/01/2003 08:07:35 PM 4 Views
I guess we do. *NM* - 17/01/2003 04:56:00 AM 1 Views
arab league biased? - 17/01/2003 05:01:12 AM 1 Views
difference is - 17/01/2003 05:04:00 AM 1 Views
thanks *NM* - 17/01/2003 05:05:47 AM 1 Views
finally! - 17/01/2003 05:07:02 AM 1 Views
No, you're wrong - 17/01/2003 12:34:48 PM 1 Views
I did not know that - 17/01/2003 02:17:36 PM 1 Views
Despite the fact that the United Nations is impotent... - 17/01/2003 02:30:46 PM 1 Views
that is very kind of you - 17/01/2003 03:06:16 PM 1 Views
Maybe this will clear things up - 17/01/2003 04:33:04 PM 1 Views
a couple of small details - 17/01/2003 06:17:27 PM 1 Views
True enough. But, um, the comparison is to Bush.. - 17/01/2003 07:03:47 PM 1 Views
actually, I knew all that - 18/01/2003 08:39:39 AM 1 Views
Re: a couple of small details - 18/01/2003 08:45:15 AM 1 Views
lol - 18/01/2003 08:46:21 AM 1 Views
what ethnic minority was blamed? - 18/01/2003 08:53:27 AM 1 Views
Ok... - 18/01/2003 06:18:31 PM 1 Views
Re: Hey mierin. - 19/01/2003 12:08:27 AM 1 Views
Re: The vote: - 19/01/2003 12:15:24 AM 1 Views
The most recent number I heard... - 19/01/2003 01:33:41 AM 1 Views
*starts at sig* oh, well... that will have to wait - 19/01/2003 08:02:53 AM 1 Views
can you deny it? - 19/01/2003 08:04:24 AM 1 Views
oh. sorry - 19/01/2003 08:06:32 AM 1 Views
Last I heard - 19/01/2003 08:07:22 AM 1 Views
Re: LOL!! - 19/01/2003 10:24:39 AM 1 Views
Re: - 19/01/2003 10:41:58 AM 1 Views
sorry, I have been learning from the president lately - 19/01/2003 11:05:44 AM 1 Views
Re: Re: - 19/01/2003 11:18:07 AM 1 Views
They seem conflicted to me - 19/01/2003 12:45:59 PM 1 Views
We were both wrong - 19/01/2003 05:11:42 PM 1 Views
something in between then... - 19/01/2003 05:18:39 PM 1 Views
Let me get this straight... - 19/01/2003 05:33:29 PM 1 Views
Wasn't it already straight? - 19/01/2003 05:47:13 PM 1 Views
What I'm confused about - 19/01/2003 09:42:36 PM 1 Views
You are mixing up two things - 20/01/2003 02:09:28 AM 1 Views
Ok. It looks like I agree with you on most points. - 20/01/2003 02:22:29 PM 1 Views
good - 20/01/2003 03:49:14 PM 1 Views
The other controversial elections - 21/01/2003 12:57:13 AM 1 Views
I see. thanks. *NM* - 21/01/2003 01:51:10 AM 1 Views