Re: /Tolkein - Questions about the Elven Rings of Power
Sidious Send a noteboard - 10/05/2010 11:26:16 AM
It appears that Gandalf the Grey never wielded Narya openly. He was probably very circumspect about using it and "cloaked it" like Elrond and Galadriel. It seems he used Narya openly only after he's declared himself in the last war, as Gandalf the White. Frodo never saw him wield his power openly (before the rescue, anyway).
Well that could have been the power of the Istari. Gandalf has always been very powerful but he was forbidden to use his power to directly contest Sauron. After he died, he either decided to break this stricture, or was given permission to do so by the Valar.
There's little doubt he was using Narya's power to discreetely increase his own power as a Maia to foster hope and courage, in others and probably in himself as well. Saruman despaired and fell to Sauron, he didn't.
Indeed, though Treebeard had suspicions that Saruman had been evil since the first day he stepped on middle earth.
Gandalf and Elrond were more circumspect about their rings. Sauron long suspected Elrond and Galadriel wielded a ring because their realms could withstand his power, but he wasn't certain, and apparently didn't know a Maia wielded the third Elvish ring. He probably assumed it protected the Grey Havens. I assume Saruman thought the same thing or he would have ressented Gandalf even more, and much earlier than he did.
Saruman knew that Gandalf had a ring of power. He was resentful that Cirdan decided to give his ring to Gandalf instead of himself despite the fact that he was the highest member of the Order.
Galadriel was much prouder than Elrond or Gandalf about her power (she retains a bit of the arrogance, and much of the pride of her line). Frodo saw her ring, because she wielded it and wanted him to see it. The One Ring let him see it, but she didn't lift the power that hid it for Sam or anyone else. She wanted Frodo to know she was sacrifing Lothlorien and her people by supporting his quest, in part to inspire him in his quest, in part out of bitterness that the power of her ring would also vanish and the time of the Elves was over and she wanted Frodo to know of her sacrifice and commitment, in part out of pure pride for who she was, her ancestry and the power she could wield, and the achievements of her race in Middle-Earth. Tolkien didn't "taint" Galadriel as he did Feanor (e..g she didn't participate in the massacre - and she was in the entourage of a Maia before the flooding), but she still was part of the "rebels" and part of her most likely didn't look forward to abandon her power in Middle-Earth and return under the thumb of the Valar, even though she had resolved herself to that fate and had long worked against Sauron and with the Valar's Maia envoys. IRRC, Tolkien saw Galadriel as a kind of redeeming figure in her Elvish line. Her decision to forsake the power of her line, resist the temptation of the One Ring (making herself a lesser Sauron, just like Sauron was a lesser Morgoth and return to Valinor was sort of the closure to Feanor's story. But her pride was still great. She still saw that fate as "diminishing".
The blood of Feanor certainly sings in Galadriel. She's filled with nobility, ambition and the desire to rule independently of the Valar.
No, but I don't recall for sure what he was referring to. I think the "secret fire" has to do with the powers of Iluvatar and Valinor and the specific Valar Olorin was serving - Gandalf's power had to do with fire (fireworks is a triffling example, and the flame of his staff), another of the Maia had powers over fauna etc. I always thought he was warning the Balrog, a Maia twisted by Morgoth, about the source of the power linked to Valinor or Iluvatar within his staff (that Saruman had made sure to take from him when he held him prisoner, just like Gandalf broke his later). I always assumed the Valar who sent him on his mission had put the flame of Anor or some of its power within Olorin's staff and made him the keeper of this secret fire...
Apparently it's Iluvatar's energy to create life, which Morgoth could never duplicate. This is why Gandalf describes himself as the servant of the fire, and it was most likely a warning to the Balrog, though he must have known it would not pause. Gandalf served Nienna, and he begged the Valar not to send him to contest Sauron, fearing that he was no match for him. While Sauron was undoubtedly one of the greatest Maia ever to exist, there are hints that Gandalf was the greatest of the Istari from the beginning. It's therefore unlikely that they gave him special tools, though we know that their power is linked directly to their staffs.
Tolkien has not left all that much concrete information about the back story of the Maia sent to Middle-Earth. I can't recall if he explained what the flame of Anor was.
The poster above alluded to the secret fire, but not to the flame. I also wonder what it is.
Galadriel already had her ring and invested its power in Lothlorien, and Elrond had his invested in Rivendell. Wasn't Gil-Galad's ring left at the third Elvish kindgom (the Grey Havens) in the possession of the Shipwright who gave it to Gandalf when he landed the first time from Valinor?
No the Shipwright had the ring of Fire from the beginning and he gave it to Gandalf much later on. Gil-galad gave Elrond his ring before he died fighting Sauron.
First because the three Elvish rings were hidden from Sauron, who never touched them, and what the ring bearers accomplished with their rings wasn't corrupted the same way as the power of the lesser rings were. The bearers were also able to hide them from Sauron after he lost the One Ring. Also, Gandalf was a powerful Maia like Sauron, and the Elves were very powerful and forewarned against Sauron the second he unveiled the One Ring, whereas the nine Men were not, and their hearts were easier to corrupt.
True, though Gandalf never had to challenge Sauron in this way. Gandalf appeared a thousand years after Sauron died, and that's when he received the Ring.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The power of their rings ended with the destruction of the One Ring - as they knew it would, and they left Middle-Earth a few years after, after the exile of their people was finished. We don't need more evidence than the ring bearers saying this was happening. Everything they had done wasn't undone right away, it faded, and Elrond and Galadriel both wielded considerable personal power even without their rings. The power in Lothlorien kept fading as Galadriel went away and returned a bit as Arwen went to live there after Aragorn's death, but it faded away for good after Arwen's death, as it had presumably done at Rivendell by then.
I mean that they had theories as to whether the Rings would lose their power if the One Ring was destroyed. After the Ring was destroyed, they decided to leave middle earth though I'm not sure if a quote existed to show that the Elven Rings had indeed become useless. Certainly they should not be - they were made long before the One Ring was. However, considering Sauron taught Celebrimbor the lore to make the rings it's possible that all the Rings were made primarily with a flaw that would allow the One Ring to dominate them when it was eventually created.
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/Tolkein - Questions about the Elven Rings of Power
- 09/05/2010 06:20:16 PM
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Interesting - and rather appropriate, as I'm watching RotK.
- 09/05/2010 06:31:43 PM
938 Views
Watching RotK is never appropriate
- 09/05/2010 09:01:59 PM
839 Views
Does it help if watching it didn't improve my opinion of it? 
- 09/05/2010 10:13:05 PM
863 Views
- 09/05/2010 10:13:05 PM
863 Views
Hey I love those movies
- 10/05/2010 11:12:53 AM
963 Views
- 10/05/2010 11:12:53 AM
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I mostly agree about the first two, but RotK just has too much silliness.
- 10/05/2010 12:22:07 PM
802 Views
i'm of the opinion that there should not be "artistic license" taken with such a long-standing story
- 11/05/2010 05:42:09 AM
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*NM*
Re: /Tolkein - Questions about the Elven Rings of Power
- 09/05/2010 11:25:48 PM
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Re: /Tolkein - Questions about the Elven Rings of Power
- 10/05/2010 11:26:16 AM
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