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Only to the extent you're inviting it. Tom Send a noteboard - 10/02/2011 06:10:49 PM
If you want to write a review of AT 333, go ahead and do it. I keep mentioning that my fundamental problem is that you use the review as a springboard to discuss a lot of stuff that isn't in Grimm, while ignoring what IS in Grimm.

It would be like discussing lay investiture disputes in the Middle Ages under the aegis of writing a review of The Name of the Rose. Tangentially relevant? Perhaps. But a review is, by its nature, the discussion of a book. If there is an element in the book that is hinted at in obscure terms, but which was explicit in previous tellings of a tale, then it would be relevant. However, what you talk about is completely missing from Grimm.

Furthermore, your inductive reasoning for why it is missing is wholly unsatisfactory and completely lacking any factual evidence to back it up. The link you provided does nothing to assist this situation. In fact, it would imply that the origin of the "blood and flesh" metaphor is one that was a Jewish rejection of Christianity, rather than a Protestant commentary on transubstantiation.

Once more, though, I have to remind you that none of this is even present in Grimm. Theoretically, the Grimms would have encountered this if it were relevant for German Lutherans, as they traveled the entire country (note the Low German usages in many stories).

You waste your time talking about an element that isn't present or even hinted at and that has nothing to do with the Grimms' book, as part of the main review. That's just terrible reviewing.

At the same time, there are dozens of juicy topics IN the Grimm tales. The rampant anti-Semitism is particularly relevant, coming as it does about 100 years before the Holocaust and in the context of the German national awakening. The linguistic component of the stories is considerable, as is the use of onomatopoeia, rhyme and word play. The shocking treatment of children by parents was harsh even in the context of the times (as I mentioned, Hänsel and Grethel's own mother wants to cast them out into the forest in the first version of that story; I use the orthography for "Gretel" that I found in my copy of the text). The national obsession with fairy tales as part of the folk-culture of the nation is significant, but rather than discuss that context, you make the misleading statements that the books "weren't for children" but then "degenerated" over time into such.

Surely you can see that you're not reviewing Grimm at all, in the final analysis. Your stubborn persistence in ignoring this reality and defending yourself at all costs are pushing me to "skirt the edges of ad hominem attacks", as you put it.


You didn't talk about what you claimed to be reviewing, but instead decided to parade out purported knowledge (neither proven, nor cited, nor able to be discussed in any way with your reader) about fairy tales generally. You did this at the same time that you seemed to display ignorance about what actually WAS contained in what you supposedly read. My grade for this review: F.


I guess when I get off work I could break out certain books out of boxes and then start citing if that would do, but why bother now? I made it quite clear in that final paragraph that I was shifting away from the Grimm version to note the variance in order to place the written version in a greater context that was to tie back into the introductory paragraphs about the dissemination of such stories over a period of centuries and countries. I even cited the AT-333 code for the story, or have you not bothered investigating that? Grimm's Fairy Tales is a decent-enough rendering of some stories, but it isn't necessarily the one that's most faithful to some of the older variations in the tales recorded in there. I believe that is quite relevant to discussing the stories, but I suppose some might disagree.

Hrmm...seems like some of the material I've read before is available on Google Books. I'll leave this little link that references the cannibalistic elements found in AT 333. Mind you that I do not buy the psychoanalysis that Duende later explores in relation to this tale.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 10/02/2011 at 06:13:51 PM
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Jakob and Wilhelm Grimm, Grimm's Fairy Tales - 09/02/2011 01:15:09 AM 1437 Views
Of course, the Grimms wanted to listen to how the people told the tales, too. - 09/02/2011 05:39:39 AM 625 Views
That and they were after specific German examples - 09/02/2011 10:33:27 PM 598 Views
I think you need to modify your review. - 10/02/2011 06:03:26 AM 638 Views
Not really - 10/02/2011 07:02:15 AM 734 Views
Well, in that case your review sucks. - 10/02/2011 04:08:21 PM 484 Views
So you're skirting the edges of the ad hominem attack now? - 10/02/2011 04:45:28 PM 728 Views
Only to the extent you're inviting it. - 10/02/2011 06:10:49 PM 577 Views

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