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I see your point - like I said, not quite sure if he succeeds in his purpose Legolas Send a noteboard - 27/08/2015 08:43:47 PM

of deriving some kind of scientific rules going beyond the individual historical circumstances of each case - or if he does, some of them are blindingly obvious, like the role of religion in promulgating Arabic and Hebrew. But eh, I didn't really mind if the general conclusions weren't too strong, as there was enough fascinating stuff in the individual case studies to make the book interesting regardless.

View original postPeople take way too much of a deterministic approach to history and try to view things in terms of trends and forces, when it's really about people making choices. A lot of times those choices in the aggregate resemble a trend or something like that, but there is still a collective will making a choice for a reason.

Hm. I follow you to some extent in that argument when it comes to historical events in which one or a few people play a deciding role - after the old kind of history that loved its hero worship, the new kind has gone too far in the other direction to the point of almost pretending that the choices of the key individuals in question are irrelevant.

But in the case of language history, it's all about people making choices in the aggregate as you say, so surely those trends and forces are crucial for that?


View original postSee, right there. The general determining factors are that people who spoke languages died or found it easier to speak other languages. I.e. the literal lingua franca, which made it easier to do business and achieve one's ends, as is also the case with English nowadays.

Sure, but how does a language rise to that lingua franca status? Some do it the obvious way - conquering large parts of the globe. But there are others that managed it in much stranger ways, like how Aramaic somehow managed to become the lingua france of the Assyrian Empire even though the original speakers of Aramaic never amounted to very much.
View original postRacism. Indians have the same racial roots as the English, who were also a lot more invested in India than the Dutch were in Indonesia. The former also had a more definitive and distinct national identity. It's hard to impose something like that on someone else, when you're not too sure how it goes yourself. The Dutch only really distinguished themselves from other Netherlanders politically a very short time before colonizing Indonesia. Also, I'm not sure what the situation was in pre-colonial Indonesia, but given how India goes, the lingua franca explanation is glaringly obvious for the Indians themselves, as well as the external advantages. It's not like you could find a Dutch-speaking colony or outpost in every timezone on the planet. An Indian who learned English would find that useful in Canada, Australia, Ireland, Middle Earth, the United States, various places in the Caribbean and Africa and even for getting along with his similarly educated neighbors from other parts of India, which is no more linguistically homogeneous than Europe. What similar incentive is there for an Indonesian to learn Dutch?

You're looking at it from a modern perspective and taking the current status for granted, though. For an Indian and an Indonesian now, it's glaringly obvious why the first will want to learn English and the second won't want to learn Dutch. But go back to when those countries were first colonized. In the seventeenth century, Britain was only starting to outpace the Netherlands as a world power, and English had nothing like the status it has now - and indeed, at that time and a for a good while afterwards, neither nation was really interested in teaching their language to the natives in their colony, much preferring that the natives stay far away from all European languages in which they might gain dangerous knowledge. Later on, though, the Britons started teaching English on a wide scale and using it increasingly in government - while the Dutch, for a long time, used Malay and even Portuguese to communicate with the natives rather than Dutch. Those are choices that were made, with repercussions lasting to this day - if the Dutch had made different choices, Dutch might've remained a lingua franca in Indonesia in the same way that (to skip English for a moment) Portuguese is in Mozambique or Angola, or French in much of Africa.
View original postAgain, it comes down to reasons for people to do a thing, rather than any inherent property of the language itself. I don't know if the book is overlooking that point, or arrives at that conclusion, but if the latter, it would seem a weird question to try to answer with a whole book. It's like that Leigh Butler twit going on a whole rant that she can't find an explanation quickly on the internet for the practice of referring to ships as female - it's so blindly obvious to anyone who gets it, no one bothers to write it down. Hence the validity of the author's claim to be the only one doing such a study. Just because Tolkien's world existed to explain his linguistic inventions doesn't mean the real world follows that order of cause & effect.

Ostler does suggest that in a few specific cases, the most obvious explanation for a language's success is some inherent property - or a property that the language's speakers widely saw it as having. One of those cases is Aramaic, which had a major advantage over Akkadian in the form of its alphabet (as opposed to the originally Sumerian cuneiform that Akkadian was still using). Another is Sanskrit, whose speakers somehow managed to convince themselves and much of the rest of Asia that Sanskrit was somehow a supremely beautiful and prestigious language, regardless of who did or didn't speak it.
View original postI'd be perversely interested to see how. If he has a better explanation than merely pointing out chronological or numerical similarities between the colonization of two different lands.

The other way around might be an exaggeration in the sense that English is so dominant nowadays that the inhabitants of every country, including Indonesia, have good reasons to learn it. But you get the basic point - if the Dutch had used their own language for everything and promoted it, while the English had continued their original policy of promoting Persian and Hindustani over English in India, then today's Indians might not speak English much better than the Indonesians.
View original postGlorious maybe from a linguistic perspective or some sort of academic or aesthetic mentality, but in no way otherwise. A handful of Spaniards didn't take down the Aztecs because of the inherent superiority of the European race, they had a fuckton of people who had had it up to here with their Aztec neighbors on their side.

True enough.
View original postMaybe because Hebrew speakers didn't stick up enough to get hammered down by the Romans. As you note, it was resurrected later on (it did not resurrect itself). There were probably more Hebrew speakers who carried it abroad in the diaspora than there were Aramaic speakers. Then, too, if any Aramaic or Phoenician speakers survived the infamously thorough Roman devastation of major cities in their regions, they subsequently fell under the dominion of Islam, with its Arabic lingua franca, while the culture that supported the few Hebrew speakers was spreading through Europe and west Asia.

Hebrew is an interesting case because it was a dead language for most purposes for so long - it's a bit like if someone managed to start a whole community of people speaking Latin as a living language again. Only possible because their respective religions keep/kept them from being entirely and completely dead.



View original postIt sounds kind of neat for the latter stuff, because of the utility of linguistic data as an indicator of more important phenomena. For example, as an indicator of a lot of the interwar ethnic issues in Eastern & Central Europe, it is useful to see how far back German was displaced by Slavic languages as the medium of intercourse in most central European cities. In many cases, it was surprisingly recent. Looking at lines on a map will not give much indication of the cultural influence of the German people throughout Europe, as politically, German didn't seem to matter much until the 19th century. But while ethnography or geography might note the existence of countries like Bohemia and Romania and Poland, as well as their Slavic populations, it doesn't show how much official business, trade, research & science and education was conducted in German throughout the Middle Ages and beyond. Most of the German street signs didn't come down until the 19th century. Is that due to some property of the German language, or was it because of the human capital contributed to those countries by people who happened to speak German. People who were originally geogrpahically close to the origins or Western advances in culture, science and societal development, but who lacked the political unity to bind them to their country of origin, and allowed them to move out into cultural frontiers in search of prosperity or peace. Language is a symptom, not a thing unto itself.

Not to nitpick, but Romania barely has any Slavic population. Even among the minorities, most are either Hungarian, German or Romany/Gypsy.

Anyway, you're absolutely right to mention that example of those Germans in Romania, that's just the type of cases the writer is interested in. Most of those populations had moved there in the late Middle Ages, never amounting to more than a minority (Silesia, Sudetenland, Königsberg etc. are obviously a different story), and somehow kept speaking German for five hundred or so years - starting long before German could make any kind of claim to superior scientific or cultural supremacy. An interesting contrast with the Germanic tribes of the early Middle Ages, like the Visigoths or Vandals, which ruled supreme in Spain and North-Africa respectively, but nevertheless very rapidly lost their native Germanic languages.

View original postI'd recommend "Conquest And Culture" by Thomas Sowell for a look at those sort of factors and how they influence culture, and in turn, language, which is both a symptom and a mechanism of transmission.

I'll keep an eye out for that, thanks!

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Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World, by Nicolas Ostler - 25/08/2015 07:17:36 PM 863 Views
IDK, it seems fairly straightforward to me. - 27/08/2015 02:57:19 PM 511 Views
I see your point - like I said, not quite sure if he succeeds in his purpose - 27/08/2015 08:43:47 PM 521 Views
There were no Hebrew speakers at the time of the Roman Empire - 28/08/2015 04:21:48 PM 457 Views
Well that was what I meant by Hebrew speakers in the diaspora - 29/08/2015 03:23:36 PM 548 Views
It's an interesting book but I don't agree with all his points - 28/08/2015 06:07:46 PM 528 Views
Makes sense - 29/08/2015 03:29:27 PM 537 Views
Guess I should've known you'd already have read it. - 31/08/2015 01:06:27 PM 554 Views

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