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I guess it depends on exactly what the fees are. Tim Send a noteboard - 13/05/2010 11:06:37 AM
But if the comparatively few people from working-class backgrounds who want to go to university can't afford do so, things will never get any better.

Double or triple tuition fees, and they'd still be on a level with the Dutch ones, less than half of the British ones and nothing compared to American ones. Extend the scholarships to keep the price the same for those who need it, if need be. But really, this "higher education needs to be free" thing is nonsense. If the working class people don't get to university, it really isn't because of the money, it's because our secondary education system evidently isn't good enough at getting the deserving among those people in the university-aimed tracks, because somehow they are discouraged from university studies. When I'm discussing topics like this, I suddenly find myself longing for that American dream concept that I otherwise tend to be rather sceptical about.


If you go the American way and charge €20,000, but then offer €20,000 scholarships to the poor, you'll still get mostly rich people because the poor will see the price tag and get scared. And they'll be less likely to apply because they know they can't be assured of getting a scholarship, even if they are clever.

On the other hand, if you charge €750 and offer €750 scholarships to the poor, it might work a bit better.

That said, I do sometimes resent some of the 18-year-olds on my course who are getting their degree for free while I pay through the nose. Not because I don't think tuition should be free, nor because I don't think it's fair enough to charge people for a second degree, but because a lot of them take it for granted and piss around instead of doing work. We accelerated students often say to each other "Pah, you can tell who's getting their degree for free..." Using taxpayers' money to skip lectures and sit mute and unprepated in tutorials is not OK in my book.

Some figures for you to explain the problem: most university studies in Flanders (not sure about Walloon data) have pass rates of about 50% in the first year; most of the 50% who fail will eventually get their degree with one or more years delay, but a significant amount doesn't. Of course, high failure rates in the first year is, one might argue, a necessity in a country where universities accept every student who wishes to enroll provided he has a secondary school certificate (which is one reason why I advocate entrance exams like our medicine schools have, the main reason why the pass rate is so much higher there), but it's still an enormous waste of taxpayer money.


I think guaranteed entry to anyone who finishes school, rather than free tuition, is the source of your problem :P. That way people drift into university, rather than setting their heart on getting there and working for it. Then they suddenly discover they don't have to be there as they did with school, and they go nuts.

Do universities not get to set their own standards, and make entry conditional on getting certain grades? Damn bleeding-heart liberal Europeans :P. (New Zealand is like that too)

How did this go from a post about Estonia to a post about me giving my opinion on a myriad of Belgian issues? :P


I'm in a mood for discussing politics at the moment. You can probably guess why. Also, in addition to the obvious reason, I have a Public Law exam coming up.
Vigilantibus non dormientibus jura subveniunt.

—Nous disons en allemand : le guerre, le mort, le lune, alors que 'soleil' et 'amour' sont du sexe féminin : la soleil, la amour. La vie est neutre.

—La vie ? Neutre ? C'est très joli, et surtout très logique.
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So the list of countries using the euro will grow longer, not shorter... Estonia to join in 2011 Legolas - 12/05/2010 10:51:37 PM 1155 Views
Sounds like a winner Isaac - 12/05/2010 11:07:38 PM 763 Views
You Americans should like Estonia - they're rather neoliberal that way. Legolas - 12/05/2010 11:18:30 PM 957 Views
Apparently we do Isaac - 13/05/2010 05:34:41 PM 798 Views
I liked the remark one Estonian bankofficial made Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2010 11:38:26 PM 725 Views
Re: I liked the remark one Estonian bankofficial made BlackAdder - 12/05/2010 11:42:37 PM 790 Views
I stand corrected than Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2010 11:45:33 PM 674 Views
I do sometimes wish more Belgians would understand that. Legolas - 12/05/2010 11:52:41 PM 661 Views
Re: I do sometimes wish more Belgians would understand that. BlackAdder - 13/05/2010 12:05:03 AM 664 Views
That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:11:37 AM 795 Views
Social attitudes take a very long time to change. Tim - 13/05/2010 12:28:09 AM 813 Views
We have need-based scholarships. We could extend them. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:38:31 AM 697 Views
I guess it depends on exactly what the fees are. Tim - 13/05/2010 11:06:37 AM 785 Views
They're low. Too low. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:12:29 PM 811 Views
American universities do have entrance exams. Sort of. Macharius - 13/05/2010 02:17:13 PM 796 Views
Those are really too lame to count. Legolas - 13/05/2010 02:21:23 PM 843 Views
Re: Those are really too lame to count. Macharius - 13/05/2010 05:04:25 PM 849 Views
typically the more specialized programs require that LadyLorraine - 13/05/2010 05:53:20 PM 758 Views
Re: Those are really too lame to count. BlackAdder - 13/05/2010 07:32:19 PM 859 Views
Like I indicated, I'm not suggesting it in the American system. Legolas - 13/05/2010 07:53:15 PM 858 Views
meh. Most degrees are useless anyway. AgentOrange - 13/05/2010 01:14:54 AM 685 Views
That could be fixed if there weren't such stigma attached to vocational schools. Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 02:18:40 AM 708 Views
Re: That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility. BlackAdder - 13/05/2010 08:08:16 PM 772 Views
Buying a senator helps. Vodalus - 14/05/2010 02:33:44 AM 726 Views
Re: That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility. Legolas - 14/05/2010 11:48:22 AM 770 Views
Is it as late as university? Or is it a good bit earlier? EDIT: Nevermind. Answered elsewhere. Vodalus - 14/05/2010 05:36:50 PM 870 Views
Oh, it's a lot earlier. Legolas - 14/05/2010 06:03:51 PM 824 Views
Re: Is it as late as university? Or is it a good bit earlier? EDIT: Nevermind. Answered elsewhere. BlackAdder - 14/05/2010 07:57:32 PM 714 Views
Re: That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility. BlackAdder - 14/05/2010 08:02:58 PM 820 Views
Come on. jh - 13/05/2010 10:13:29 AM 846 Views
naw most of them are getting degrees in liberal arts because they like to read book more then work *NM* random thoughts - 13/05/2010 02:01:59 PM 286 Views
You ever been to Estonia? If not, stop speaking. *NM* Lordling - 13/05/2010 10:29:17 AM 422 Views
your funny *NM* random thoughts - 13/05/2010 02:01:06 PM 292 Views
Surely Sweden can say, or could have said, that they wouldn't join till they damn well felt like it? Tim - 12/05/2010 11:39:57 PM 714 Views
Apparently Denmark only got the opt-out after rejecting the Maastricht treaty. Legolas - 12/05/2010 11:47:00 PM 755 Views
Good point: it seems to me no-one cares about being Belgian, only Flemish or Walloon . Tim - 12/05/2010 11:51:27 PM 625 Views
It's slightly more subtle than that. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:00:29 AM 792 Views
What do you think about this suggestion? Tim - 13/05/2010 12:09:02 AM 779 Views
That has been suggested by many, yeah. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:28:24 AM 788 Views
But before you make a decision like that... Bramhodoulos - 13/05/2010 08:36:07 AM 773 Views
They can export him to another country which needs a king. Wouldn't be the first time. Tim - 13/05/2010 10:57:59 AM 712 Views
We have a Flemish government, though. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:22:57 PM 815 Views
Hmm, a pan-European entity getting too big and splitting into Eastern and Western administrations... Tim - 13/05/2010 11:09:51 AM 695 Views
That wasn't entirely what I meant. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:15:14 PM 727 Views
There is one answer to most of those questions Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2010 11:49:46 PM 652 Views
I love that the rest of you have the euro. Tim - 12/05/2010 11:53:10 PM 647 Views
*waits for the Pound to drop and the UK begging for the euro* *NM* Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2010 11:56:25 PM 362 Views
That would be the worst time to do it. Tim - 13/05/2010 12:05:32 AM 748 Views
Well... that is true. But your exports would be really high. Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 12:11:50 AM 687 Views
Also the best time. snoopcester - 13/05/2010 12:11:53 AM 743 Views
I WIN *NM* Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 12:12:51 AM 296 Views
Bah *NM* snoopcester - 13/05/2010 12:18:48 AM 267 Views
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... *NM* Tim - 13/05/2010 12:19:32 AM 253 Views
I think on the balance, that's probably better than the opposite, but yeah, neither is ideal. *NM* Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:14:23 AM 334 Views
There is a small problem with that... jh - 13/05/2010 10:21:44 AM 642 Views
I found the wikipedia article. Tim - 13/05/2010 10:53:00 AM 843 Views
WOW WHEN DID THE UK CHANGE THEIR COINS Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 12:10:41 AM 746 Views
2008, apparently. Though I don't think we actually saw them until 2009. Tim - 13/05/2010 12:17:46 AM 756 Views
Oh. Okay. I guess the black is just a reflective thing they're doing for the photo. Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 12:37:24 AM 688 Views
I used to use a ten-pound note to inhale...things. Tom - 13/05/2010 05:54:09 AM 700 Views
You have a thing for Charles Darwin? Tim - 13/05/2010 10:45:14 AM 650 Views
From "Mean Mr. Mustard" - "keeps a ten-bob note up his nose...such a mean old man..." Tom - 13/05/2010 02:36:34 PM 680 Views
In that case I'm going to have to disappoint you. Tim - 13/05/2010 02:54:04 PM 814 Views
I knew that, but I had limited options. Tom - 13/05/2010 03:15:07 PM 790 Views
You could try a €500 note. Tim - 13/05/2010 03:18:11 PM 687 Views
In other news, the sky is blue. Legolas - 13/05/2010 03:33:25 PM 712 Views
I seem to remember reading something in 2002 about Germans paying their monthly rent in cash. Tim - 13/05/2010 03:43:35 PM 787 Views
Hm. Possible. Legolas - 13/05/2010 03:50:31 PM 666 Views
Re: In other news, the sky is blue. BlackAdder - 13/05/2010 07:45:06 PM 786 Views
Sheesh...I was just using, not dealing. Tom - 13/05/2010 03:47:05 PM 686 Views
The thrill of decadence? *NM* Tim - 13/05/2010 03:51:21 PM 287 Views
Ooh...I'm sure THAT will shore up the eurozone... *laughs* Tom - 13/05/2010 05:51:12 AM 733 Views
Agreed Balwer - 13/05/2010 12:20:12 PM 706 Views
Nobody said it would. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:34:27 PM 714 Views
You know what will save the eurozone ? AgentOrange - 13/05/2010 04:55:06 PM 698 Views
You're a little ray of sunshine, aren't you? *NM* Legolas - 13/05/2010 05:10:48 PM 275 Views
Hey man, I don't want Europe to be the next Japan AgentOrange - 13/05/2010 05:42:26 PM 709 Views
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