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Not entirely necessary. Werthead Send a noteboard - 31/05/2010 08:30:09 PM
Individual NATO members can be attacked without it incurring a full NATO response (the UK did have some NATO intelligence assistance from France and the USA, but did not call for NATO military assistance in the Falklands War), whilst individual NATO members can undertake offensive action disapproved of by other NATO members without being kicked out by the organisation (France and Britain in Suez, Britain and the US in Iraq, etc). Whilst technically NATO is meant to respond to any threat to any individual member, in spirit NATO is oriented against Russia and potential large-scale threats to all of Europe (such as Iran).

This is the "One country can't get NATO into WW3 because they're acting like dicks," clause.

If Turkey was kicked out of NATO or chose to leave of its own violtion, that would also see 5,000+ American and European military personnel have to pull out of Incirlik. It would also, certainly to the relief of the Israelis, mean that ninety nuclear missiles based in Turkey would have to be withdrawn.
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Israeli attack on aid convoy Camilla - 31/05/2010 10:21:02 AM 2491 Views
Seems a bit of a mess. Rebekah - 31/05/2010 11:09:04 AM 1177 Views
Re: Seems a bit of a mess. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:14:45 PM 1173 Views
Israel was in a no win situation Wibble - 31/05/2010 12:09:13 PM 1396 Views
And Mr Hague has just made his 1st mistake Wibble - 31/05/2010 12:26:28 PM 1434 Views
you do realize israel had plenty of options to deter the boats other than opening fire on them? moondog - 31/05/2010 06:20:03 PM 1494 Views
do you realize they didn't open fire on the ship? random thoughts - 31/05/2010 07:51:53 PM 1125 Views
supposedly the boat being boarded shouted "we are raising the white flag, stop shooting" moondog - 31/05/2010 07:54:49 PM 1350 Views
Why is it that the Israelis are routinely not believed and the Palestinian extremists are? Tom - 31/05/2010 08:17:09 PM 1376 Views
probably because israel has a history of opening fire on people they don't agree with? moondog - 31/05/2010 08:26:19 PM 1277 Views
And the Palestinians don't? And obnoxious Turks don't? *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 09:02:20 PM 489 Views
this was not a palestinian boat moondog - 31/05/2010 09:09:47 PM 1275 Views
I'm aware of that. But there were some Palestinians on board from what I read. Tom - 31/05/2010 10:03:59 PM 1194 Views
And a holocaust survivor and a Scottish journalist. Quite the mixed bag, really. *NM* snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:04:52 PM 533 Views
No it was TURKS!!!!!!!!! p hart - 31/05/2010 11:09:49 PM 1236 Views
supposed by who? random thoughts - 31/05/2010 08:47:47 PM 1471 Views
From what I heard, 11 dead. jh - 31/05/2010 12:26:59 PM 1246 Views
Norwegian news is saying "at least 19" Camilla - 31/05/2010 12:29:14 PM 1169 Views
It's a PR disaster, surely. Legolas - 31/05/2010 12:31:50 PM 1233 Views
What Legolas said... Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 01:56:56 PM 1300 Views
To be fair: they said they'd never let the flotilla through so what did people expect? *NM* Rebekah - 31/05/2010 02:01:10 PM 552 Views
A) No killings, and B) No open sea piracy. jh - 31/05/2010 02:23:28 PM 1261 Views
Enforcing a blockade isn't piracy, and violence was a predictable result. *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 02:35:35 PM 537 Views
That defense gets sketchy if it was in international waters. *NM* Camilla - 31/05/2010 02:37:00 PM 537 Views
Why? Because of international "law"? I doubt the US will agree to do anything to Israel. *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 02:55:29 PM 560 Views
And in turn I doubt China will agree to do anything about Iran. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:18:59 PM 1059 Views
Not likely. Tom - 31/05/2010 05:37:42 PM 1222 Views
Interestingly enough, one of our problems with China seemd to vanish from the news... Vodalus - 01/06/2010 02:02:35 AM 1110 Views
Nice catch. Joel - 01/06/2010 09:56:03 AM 1277 Views
A little digging around has turned up a few nuggets. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 10:12:10 PM 1216 Views
*shrug* Your opinions are not worth water in this question. jh - 31/05/2010 03:05:31 PM 1295 Views
Sure, whatever. *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 05:38:23 PM 553 Views
ships are boarded in international waters all of the time *NM* random thoughts - 31/05/2010 07:53:53 PM 491 Views
Yes, but then the pirates are hunted down and shot by the russians. *NM* jh - 31/05/2010 09:15:52 PM 451 Views
in this case it was Israel that hunt them down and shot them *NM* random thoughts - 01/06/2010 04:34:19 AM 537 Views
No, those would be the pirates. *NM* jh - 01/06/2010 10:03:37 AM 586 Views
no those would be tghe radicals that got them selfs killed trying to run a blockade. *NM* random thoughts - 02/06/2010 01:42:23 AM 597 Views
What ship did they board? *NM* jh - 02/06/2010 01:42:17 PM 567 Views
It is impressive that you are still trying Camilla - 02/06/2010 02:59:02 PM 1222 Views
no it is just a stupid and inaccurate analogy random thoughts - 02/06/2010 03:05:32 PM 1257 Views
Well, that are two concepts that you are intimately familiar with... jh - 02/06/2010 07:30:07 PM 1372 Views
and talking with you only makes me more familar with the issues random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:41:20 PM 1139 Views
Calling me a Jew-hater now? jh - 02/06/2010 08:23:08 PM 1311 Views
you compare Israel to North Korea and want to talk about stupid random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:34:03 PM 1037 Views
Propaganda is propaganda. You're the one who chooses to believe in it. *NM* jh - 02/06/2010 10:13:42 PM 543 Views
thats funny coming from you *NM* random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:08:41 PM 567 Views
Indeed. *NM* Rebekah - 31/05/2010 04:30:11 PM 599 Views
Um, I know what I expected: that they wouldn't kill anyone. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 04:02:38 PM 525 Views
Ideally, that wouldn't have happened. But when are real life situations ever ideal? Rebekah - 31/05/2010 04:29:50 PM 1258 Views
That's a bit of a meager excuse. Legolas - 31/05/2010 04:42:35 PM 1279 Views
It's not an excuse, more of a "they were warned". *NM* Rebekah - 31/05/2010 04:52:39 PM 563 Views
Why did Israel have to waste time and effort "exhausting peaceful options" in the first place? Tom - 31/05/2010 05:41:59 PM 1193 Views
I don't think it was so inexorable that the result would be that. Legolas - 31/05/2010 05:57:29 PM 1220 Views
To be fair: this is israel's typical response to international pro-palestinian protest groups moondog - 31/05/2010 06:37:25 PM 1023 Views
This won't change anything random thoughts - 31/05/2010 06:04:54 PM 1195 Views
Re: This won't change anything Legolas - 31/05/2010 06:13:36 PM 1173 Views
Here's the link. Vodalus - 31/05/2010 06:44:06 PM 1106 Views
America and Turkey are military allies, so they do care. Werthead - 31/05/2010 06:14:21 PM 1370 Views
yes and that alliance came in so handy back in 2003 random thoughts - 31/05/2010 07:50:12 PM 1210 Views
That nearly all went extremely wrong. Werthead - 31/05/2010 08:20:41 PM 1397 Views
Yes...why are we allied with a country like that? Tom - 31/05/2010 08:22:12 PM 1132 Views
Positioning Werthead - 31/05/2010 08:54:56 PM 1363 Views
Question snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:00:43 PM 1243 Views
The Turkish people is certainly quite anti-American Floffe - 31/05/2010 11:26:37 PM 1329 Views
I thought we were talking Government policy? snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:21:53 PM 1310 Views
Re: I thought we were talking Government policy? p hart - 01/06/2010 05:18:56 PM 1347 Views
The Israelis warned them. If they resisted violently they knew they would/could get shot dead. Tom - 31/05/2010 02:34:38 PM 1295 Views
Most likely true. jh - 31/05/2010 03:06:55 PM 1253 Views
An Israeli friend on fb Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 04:15:32 PM 1154 Views
That sounds like utter nonsense. *NM* Camilla - 31/05/2010 04:18:06 PM 629 Views
Because? *NM* Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 04:18:45 PM 475 Views
The Israeli army would know better than to send soldiers with paintball guns Camilla - 31/05/2010 04:20:52 PM 1229 Views
Maybe "paintball guns" is a way of saying non-lethal guns Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 04:25:05 PM 1299 Views
actiually, it is *NM* aragornital - 01/06/2010 08:19:02 PM 666 Views
Because soldiers going into a dangerous situation don't carry paintball guns SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 04:21:50 PM 1223 Views
you can't fire rubber bullets on a ship AgentOrange - 31/05/2010 05:17:31 PM 1188 Views
Generalization SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:22:58 PM 1139 Views
I highly doubt they held paintball guns. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:01:15 PM 1303 Views
Not least if one goes on the latest accounts coming out snoopcester - 31/05/2010 05:07:46 PM 1226 Views
I see, this may have caused the confusion... Bramhodoulos - 01/06/2010 04:19:22 PM 1198 Views
Actually, some Israeli military sources are saying that some commandos had paintball guns snoopcester - 01/06/2010 04:53:12 PM 1296 Views
Paintball weapons? Weird. They don't hurt nad enough to incapacitate. everynametaken - 02/06/2010 01:32:33 AM 1238 Views
Plus they have a tendency to jam. snoopcester - 02/06/2010 11:46:18 AM 1168 Views
It sucks, but I don't think the Israelis really had any choice. SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 04:20:07 PM 1279 Views
two points of criticism moondog - 31/05/2010 06:50:31 PM 1105 Views
Those could be valid. SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 05:45:35 PM 1393 Views
On the blockade... Legolas - 02/06/2010 06:06:24 PM 1212 Views
three years is the number I keep seeing random thoughts - 02/06/2010 06:22:05 PM 1199 Views
So what do you think would've happened if Israel hadn't tried to stop the convoy? Legolas - 02/06/2010 06:47:52 PM 1267 Views
your rationale assumes people would have believed them random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:05:34 PM 1267 Views
Of course it does. Legolas - 02/06/2010 08:00:34 PM 1195 Views
how? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:50:21 PM 1279 Views
Two pistols? snoopcester - 02/06/2010 07:06:35 PM 1205 Views
pipes were last minute? there is video of them using them before the ships were even boarded random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:43:06 PM 1140 Views
There is footage of them preparing them before the Israeli forces arrived? snoopcester - 02/06/2010 07:46:26 PM 1208 Views
look at the link I posted at the bottom random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:03:18 PM 1169 Views
Perhaps you linked the wrong one? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:13:33 PM 1022 Views
you argument requires we believe they were surprised the IDF showed up random thoughts - 03/06/2010 01:59:07 PM 1181 Views
You require we don't know much about ships or common sense snoopcester - 03/06/2010 02:16:25 PM 1116 Views
Okay folks - ease off SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 03:04:18 PM 1128 Views
the naval blockade has been firmly in place for the last 3-ish years, but.... moondog - 03/06/2010 02:48:11 AM 1270 Views
I'm a bit confused by what you're saying about Egypt. Legolas - 03/06/2010 09:53:27 AM 1151 Views
confused by which part? moondog - 03/06/2010 04:15:22 PM 1219 Views
Nor does Egypt allow aid into Gaza, except for the occasional medical supply. Rebekah - 03/06/2010 04:21:27 PM 1046 Views
egypt does open the border against israel's wishes though moondog - 03/06/2010 04:30:46 PM 1259 Views
Only when it suits them to a) claim Arab brotherhood, and b) make political hay. Rebekah - 03/06/2010 05:58:54 PM 1147 Views
Other sources don't agree snoopcester - 03/06/2010 04:29:03 PM 1110 Views
ah yes. see, there are actually two different barriers being discussed here moondog - 04/06/2010 01:14:21 AM 1130 Views
I understood that Egypt was for it? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:15:58 PM 1126 Views
see the article i linked to in reply to legolas *NM* moondog - 03/06/2010 04:17:08 PM 535 Views
So Israel has committed international piracy so it can keep up the collective punishment of children snoopcester - 31/05/2010 04:52:40 PM 1364 Views
Darn! You posted "stay classy" first. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:04:08 PM 1133 Views
Muahahahahaha! snoopcester - 31/05/2010 05:05:20 PM 1225 Views
I don't get the reference Camilla - 31/05/2010 05:14:41 PM 1104 Views
How does that even make sense ? AgentOrange - 01/06/2010 07:17:26 AM 1241 Views
I was talking in general terms snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:24:12 PM 1153 Views
The UN treaty does not class this as piracy SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 06:10:35 PM 1315 Views
Interesting - I guess I need to rephrase to them acting like pirates snoopcester - 02/06/2010 06:58:18 PM 1199 Views
It's more some kind of violation of sovreign soil I expect SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 08:04:11 PM 1314 Views
Seems so snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:00:54 PM 1034 Views
I don't really have a bone in this fight cmdjing - 31/05/2010 04:54:59 PM 1341 Views
And exactly how would you suggest doing this 'disabling'? SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:02:21 PM 1081 Views
They do have the equivalent of SEALS I would imagine. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:08:50 PM 1166 Views
They certainly do SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:34:14 PM 1208 Views
Pretty easy actually cmdjing - 31/05/2010 05:14:34 PM 1097 Views
No it ain't SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:27:39 PM 1186 Views
Sure it is cmdjing - 31/05/2010 05:44:16 PM 1109 Views
Movies vs. Reality Grimbear - 01/06/2010 02:54:13 AM 1127 Views
If Israel was out for blood, how come there were no injuired on all the previous convoys ? AgentOrange - 31/05/2010 05:34:06 PM 1214 Views
Because Israel didn't go insane trying to stop the previous convoys? And even let some of them pass. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 05:37:22 PM 558 Views
go insane ? I expect you to make more sense than that AgentOrange - 01/06/2010 07:09:18 AM 1090 Views
I think "go insane" about covers it, yes. Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:11:27 AM 1164 Views
Who said the Israelis were "out for blood"? Most people just think it was a dumb move. *NM* everynametaken - 31/05/2010 07:58:14 PM 542 Views
Question: is your government ever going to fire Ayalon? Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:21:14 PM 1280 Views
What an amazing gift this will be for Sunni extremists and Shiite activists. *NM* Vodalus - 31/05/2010 05:40:04 PM 634 Views
You think they needed this sort of thing to get whipped into a frenzy? Tom - 31/05/2010 05:48:39 PM 1122 Views
For themselves? No. But it will translate into a massive PR boon for them and their message. Vodalus - 31/05/2010 06:07:00 PM 1126 Views
Lesson: Don't try and run a blockade manned by people who are better armed than you. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 05:40:16 PM 1163 Views
America isn't blockading Cuba cmdjing - 31/05/2010 05:55:23 PM 1229 Views
Fine, change Venezuelan to American and it's the same thing. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 05:59:50 PM 1228 Views
Dude. There is no blockade. There are no American ships surrounding Cuba. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 06:04:22 PM 502 Views
Oh. Geeze I always thought the Americans had ships preventing vessils from reaching Cuba. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 06:18:42 PM 1160 Views
Only in 1961. Joel - 01/06/2010 10:02:59 AM 1251 Views
I'm not sure if the US physically enforces it cmdjing - 31/05/2010 06:11:57 PM 1113 Views
Well I'm not American. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 06:21:15 PM 1213 Views
Europe and Canada trade plenty with Cuba - and go on holidays there. Legolas - 31/05/2010 06:29:33 PM 1199 Views
No no I know. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 06:41:55 PM 1268 Views
The point of that snoopcester - 31/05/2010 06:42:46 PM 1088 Views
Yeah see I thought they did that with force of arms. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 07:09:08 PM 1150 Views
No the restrictions apply only to US Citizens BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 08:44:44 PM 1143 Views
They do not enforce it. The executive branch knows they will lose if they get challenged in court. BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 08:37:53 PM 1231 Views
The biggest problem for Israel is that this incident didn't occur on the blockade line. Werthead - 31/05/2010 06:25:38 PM 1320 Views
I find it odd that innocent unarmed civilians can seriously injure armed commandos random thoughts - 31/05/2010 06:47:55 PM 1224 Views
How dare you cloud the issue with facts! *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 07:57:18 PM 484 Views
i never saw where they were called unarmed? moondog - 31/05/2010 08:33:03 PM 1190 Views
so they were armed relief workers? random thoughts - 31/05/2010 08:54:29 PM 1174 Views
we are pretty sure who fired first now random thoughts - 02/06/2010 03:06:39 PM 1206 Views
oh, they released the footage shot on board the boat? moondog - 02/06/2010 04:13:25 PM 1217 Views
so you won't accept footage from the IDF? That will make believing whatever you want easier random thoughts - 02/06/2010 05:34:59 PM 1168 Views
yes, i should only believe the one side who has a case to prove instead of listening to both moondog - 03/06/2010 02:51:05 AM 1179 Views
that is a joke. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be your policy with Israel random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:06:57 PM 1175 Views
israel has a history of botching these things. forgive me if i follow the history... moondog - 04/06/2010 01:17:06 AM 1066 Views
and the radicals are known for their honesty, atleasy in what you like to think is reality random thoughts - 04/06/2010 02:12:18 PM 1066 Views
Turkey has threatened to send military vessels with future aid convoys. Werthead - 31/05/2010 07:50:54 PM 1295 Views
If they do that, we should kick them out of NATO. Tom - 31/05/2010 07:56:47 PM 1317 Views
We can only hope. *NM* everynametaken - 31/05/2010 08:02:16 PM 522 Views
If by "help the Greek economy" you mean "make them bankrupt", it could work. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 08:04:14 PM 552 Views
What are you talking about? We'd subsidize their army and pump billions into their economy. Tom - 31/05/2010 08:06:44 PM 1159 Views
I am talking about the fact that part of the reason for their current financial trouble... Legolas - 31/05/2010 08:49:43 PM 1229 Views
If I learned anything from Diplomacy, it was that BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 09:03:36 PM 1303 Views
Winter 2010? What version of Diplomacy are you playing? Tom - 31/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 1145 Views
Re: Winter 2010? What version of Diplomacy are you playing? BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 10:12:22 PM 1242 Views
Not entirely necessary. Werthead - 31/05/2010 08:30:09 PM 1329 Views
UPDATE: Proof that IDF soldiers were attacked as they boarded the Turkish ship Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:23:02 PM 1313 Views
"Violent, extremist attack"? Are you for real? Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:29:43 PM 1242 Views
What else would you call it? Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:43:01 PM 1193 Views
Okay, in that case it's more justified. Sorry. Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:45:18 PM 1281 Views
Attempting to repel boarders? Or is that to unbiased a term for you? snoopcester - 31/05/2010 09:56:31 PM 1114 Views
Except these "armed pirates" were soldiers. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 10:00:14 PM 1202 Views
Acting illegally. snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:01:31 PM 1236 Views
I guess Americans off the Somali coast boarding vessils the suspect to be pirate ships... Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 11:16:38 PM 1229 Views
I'm quite sure they have legal permission to board from the owners of those ships *NM* Floffe - 31/05/2010 11:29:08 PM 554 Views
I seriously doubt it. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 11:37:53 PM 1310 Views
Wrong boat. *NM* Vodalus - 01/06/2010 01:35:46 AM 559 Views
That's why I said "owners" and not "the guys running it" *NM* Floffe - 01/06/2010 06:39:56 AM 546 Views
And yet most of the pirates own their own boats. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 03:50:47 PM 1103 Views
I was talking about the hijacked ships Floffe - 01/06/2010 04:01:02 PM 1221 Views
Aparently it's routine now for militaries to pick up little boats of pirates. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:26:35 PM 1280 Views
You think boarding ships legally passing through international waters is the same thing? snoopcester - 01/06/2010 03:55:03 PM 1318 Views
I do. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:30:20 PM 1365 Views
Wrong snoopcester - 02/06/2010 11:47:54 AM 1223 Views
legal seems to be a very fuzzy concept these days random thoughts - 01/06/2010 04:46:47 AM 1154 Views
legal is a fuzzy concept every day... moondog - 01/06/2010 05:43:17 AM 1005 Views
When it comes to international law, it can be applied when you aren't powerful enough Helene - 01/06/2010 07:56:50 AM 1153 Views
International law, in its current incarnation is a sad joke SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 04:24:18 PM 1180 Views
As in Israel does what it likes and the US does the best it can to allow it. snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:29:20 PM 1154 Views
the ships publicly announced they were going to run the blockade random thoughts - 02/06/2010 01:37:00 AM 1205 Views
Israel should have waited till they were in Israeli waters snoopcester - 02/06/2010 11:57:40 AM 1247 Views
the timing? Israel is not the one who set the timing for the publicity stunt random thoughts - 02/06/2010 03:02:36 PM 1220 Views
i highly doubt european MPs were expecting to be shot at by the IDF moondog - 03/06/2010 03:05:27 AM 1229 Views
sorry but you are still wrong because atleast one of the ships did have a fight witht them random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:12:10 PM 1265 Views
Israel has no control of the actions of the IDF then? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:07:28 PM 1215 Views
"The timing shows, I think, what the Israeli priority is - on a US holiday, again." random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:22:58 PM 1102 Views
are you for real? random thoughts - 01/06/2010 04:45:21 AM 1200 Views
There was a misunderstanding, and I apologized to Dragonsoul. See above. *NM* Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:13:08 AM 542 Views
Looks like they got what they asked for... Grimbear - 31/05/2010 10:00:53 PM 1098 Views
Oh? snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:24:09 PM 1301 Views
Re: Oh? Grimbear - 01/06/2010 02:44:15 AM 1368 Views
Ah, I follow that now. snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:28:22 PM 1193 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. Grimbear - 01/06/2010 04:02:48 PM 1345 Views
It's a fair point as far as it goes... Legolas - 01/06/2010 04:37:44 PM 1170 Views
You've seen the video. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:12:29 PM 1080 Views
Re: It's a fair point as far as it goes... Grimbear - 02/06/2010 12:19:50 AM 1262 Views
When will people ever learn SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 05:58:19 PM 1309 Views
metal pipes and knifes are deadly force random thoughts - 02/06/2010 06:08:57 PM 1228 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. snoopcester - 01/06/2010 04:43:32 PM 1146 Views
Again I ask you: Does that make American soldiers who board ships off the Somali coast.... Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:13:35 PM 1219 Views
They are clearly different cases. snoopcester - 02/06/2010 12:00:20 PM 1166 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. Grimbear - 02/06/2010 12:38:41 AM 1348 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. snoopcester - 02/06/2010 12:18:24 PM 1234 Views
israel offered to take the aid packages because they wanted to keep the non-approved aid moondog - 01/06/2010 01:47:42 AM 1296 Views
I guess it does make things simplier if you just always blame Israel random thoughts - 02/06/2010 01:44:56 AM 1139 Views
i guess it makes things simpler if you don't allow for nuanced positions and take one side moondog - 02/06/2010 01:56:53 AM 1097 Views
I am blind? I am not the one ignoring the facts random thoughts - 02/06/2010 05:29:43 PM 1259 Views
You are however the one who refuses to allow nuances. Legolas - 02/06/2010 06:40:01 PM 1128 Views
which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:37:54 PM 1213 Views
Israel had hours more to go in Floffe - 02/06/2010 07:51:14 PM 1123 Views
Hmm snoopcester - 02/06/2010 08:09:48 PM 1237 Views
so they were scheduled to arive on an American holiday? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:52:08 PM 1216 Views
The first one where it has ended in Israeli troops kiling people? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:02:12 PM 1133 Views
what would have been the point of waiting? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:54:57 PM 1191 Views
if they had waited, they could have claimed the moral high ground that they did everything possible moondog - 03/06/2010 02:24:49 AM 1341 Views
yes because their critics are so open minded random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:38:46 PM 1109 Views
it is reall simple. who deicded when the ships would sail? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:40:54 PM 1103 Views
you are just as close minded as you claim israel's critics to be. moondog - 03/06/2010 04:29:59 PM 1121 Views
refusing to to believe silliness is not being close minded random thoughts - 03/06/2010 05:50:26 PM 1045 Views
you're missing the point again. moondog - 04/06/2010 01:21:50 AM 1150 Views
that is because they really are not very good points random thoughts - 04/06/2010 02:21:53 PM 1239 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? Legolas - 02/06/2010 08:27:20 PM 1190 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 09:23:22 PM 1039 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? Legolas - 03/06/2010 10:25:01 AM 1294 Views
Never mind concrete Camilla - 03/06/2010 10:55:36 AM 1178 Views
That is quite understandable snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:17:42 PM 1198 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:07:56 PM 1209 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? Legolas - 03/06/2010 07:02:34 PM 1184 Views
don't dismiss the importance of using darkness random thoughts - 03/06/2010 08:17:11 PM 1319 Views
one more thing random thoughts - 03/06/2010 09:08:46 PM 1234 Views
Yes, there were much more people aboard than needed to get the ships where they were going Floffe - 02/06/2010 07:05:26 PM 1164 Views
so who placed those in people in harms way to make a politcal statement? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM 1141 Views
Everyone I'm aware of who was on the ships chose to do so themselves Floffe - 02/06/2010 10:13:53 PM 1258 Views
if their stance is non violence then they need to condemn anyone who started the violence random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:10:46 PM 1141 Views
Many of the people who were onboard have just been released Floffe - 03/06/2010 03:40:26 PM 1104 Views
that is encouraging random thoughts - 03/06/2010 04:07:09 PM 1159 Views
and who made me double post? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM 1156 Views
your facts have nothing to do with the discussion in this thread. moondog - 03/06/2010 02:42:06 AM 1118 Views
so everything is Israel's fault. Remoind me again how they came to be in Gaza random thoughts - 03/06/2010 01:55:14 PM 1155 Views
you're being extremist again. it's not very becoming... *NM* moondog - 03/06/2010 04:22:18 PM 481 Views
not believing that Israel can just leave Gaza alone makes me an extremist? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 06:02:15 PM 1091 Views
translating everyting i say into "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist. *NM* moondog - 04/06/2010 01:24:33 AM 546 Views
saying "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist *NM* random thoughts - 04/06/2010 02:13:22 PM 435 Views
*cough* *NM* Camilla - 04/06/2010 02:34:04 PM 502 Views
If the Turks had any balls Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:35:32 PM 1253 Views
Because you know.... Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:44:10 PM 1170 Views
right.... *NM* Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:57:20 PM 646 Views
So they weren't being attacked? Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:58:25 PM 1180 Views
If the Turks had any integrity, they'd own up to their ongoing genocide of the Kurds Tom - 31/05/2010 09:46:53 PM 902 Views
Now you're moving from Turcophobia to blatant fiction. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:56:00 PM 549 Views
Fine. How about they own up to their genocide of the Armenians then? Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:57:48 PM 1138 Views
Fair enough stance, but that doesn't justify Tom making things up. "Ongoing genocide" is nonsense. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 10:16:53 PM 529 Views
the Turks are assholes in regards to their complete denial of the past (Armenia, kurds) Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:56:29 PM 1275 Views
wait a second...... "ongoing genocide of the Kurds" Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:59:18 PM 1393 Views
No. Legolas - 31/05/2010 10:09:15 PM 1312 Views
Yes, for both you and Legolas, allow me to share the following: Tom - 31/05/2010 10:16:18 PM 1482 Views
That's not "ongoing". Legolas - 31/05/2010 10:29:36 PM 1143 Views
The fact that it happened within the past five years is recent enough for me. Tom - 01/06/2010 12:14:24 AM 1252 Views
The absence of anything resembling genocide or massacres dates back a lot longer than that. Legolas - 01/06/2010 12:28:32 AM 1345 Views
You seem to be relying on what happened in the past snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:34:37 PM 1270 Views
Here's something recent fromSmithsonian. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 01:09:58 AM 1068 Views
Uh-oh. Ocalan just announced he's abandoning efforts to seek dialogue with Turkey. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 04:48:24 AM 1348 Views
I don't know how closely you've been following it, but... Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:18:46 AM 1238 Views
UPDATE: Compromise reached BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 11:20:32 PM 1182 Views
lol if only it were that easy *NM* Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 11:39:06 PM 496 Views
Oh, I wish. Great Lord of Chaos - 31/05/2010 11:41:27 PM 1225 Views
A long time ago a very wise man told me..... Druid - 01/06/2010 12:33:12 AM 1480 Views
Goetic imprecations Vodalus - 01/06/2010 01:34:47 AM 1109 Views
The Turkish response has been making me wonder about something. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 05:38:42 AM 1196 Views
It does make sense. Obama has put alot of effort into renewing the peace process AgentOrange - 01/06/2010 07:14:40 AM 1229 Views
I really doubt it. Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:24:45 AM 1415 Views
Russian websites have speculated it was intentional Turkish provocation. Tom - 01/06/2010 02:04:39 PM 1247 Views
FREE CYPRUS! Tom - 01/06/2010 08:18:44 PM 1103 Views
There's an Irish boat currently en route Stephen - 02/06/2010 12:06:44 PM 1108 Views
Here is some video of the innocent victims attacking the IDF random thoughts - 02/06/2010 06:03:33 PM 1189 Views
you're still posting video released by the IDF to prove the IDF's case. moondog - 03/06/2010 03:01:16 AM 1210 Views
Doesn't really matter SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 01:16:35 PM 1152 Views
dude lookat that camera angle and tell me who was shooting it random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:08:02 PM 1165 Views
look at who posted that video and tell me a longer version exists moondog - 03/06/2010 04:21:26 PM 1208 Views
so the IDF is guilty until proven innocent? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 04:24:45 PM 1125 Views
as i said to you before. if you are found running from a crime did you commit that crime? moondog - 03/06/2010 04:34:14 PM 1086 Views
have you not seen the footage of the men being attacked as they came off of the helicopter? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 05:51:47 PM 991 Views
Did you even watch the video? SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 09:07:45 PM 1368 Views
i've seen both videos, and they both begin in the middle of the confrontation moondog - 04/06/2010 01:28:24 AM 1159 Views
No, they don't SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 05:58:40 AM 1017 Views
actually, yes they do. but you will obviously not understand so i am done. *NM* moondog - 04/06/2010 07:53:40 AM 438 Views
I think his point Camilla - 04/06/2010 02:40:43 PM 1185 Views
Oh, I get that SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 03:18:36 PM 1340 Views
Re: Oh, I get that Camilla - 04/06/2010 03:25:05 PM 1222 Views
Re: Oh, I get that SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 04:43:35 PM 1114 Views
Re: Oh, I get that Camilla - 04/06/2010 04:58:04 PM 1139 Views
Not what I said SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 05:38:30 PM 1225 Views
Re: Not what I said Camilla - 04/06/2010 05:41:06 PM 1159 Views
Re: Not what I said SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 05:53:16 PM 1115 Views
Re: Not what I said Camilla - 04/06/2010 05:57:34 PM 1091 Views
Still not understanding SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:16:04 PM 1053 Views
Re: Still not understanding Camilla - 04/06/2010 06:17:34 PM 1159 Views
Nothing wrong with being special SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:43:27 PM 1145 Views
Re: Nothing wrong with being special Camilla - 04/06/2010 06:45:29 PM 1268 Views
That's silly SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 04:28:34 PM 1255 Views
i know the helicopters were not gunships, but there is such a thing as aggressive flying moondog - 03/06/2010 04:32:18 PM 1144 Views
aggressive flying???? what does that even mean? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 05:57:09 PM 978 Views
You've GOT to be joking SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 09:02:35 PM 1164 Views
i've already conceded the point, there is no need for insults please moondog - 04/06/2010 01:30:08 AM 1155 Views
When I insult you - don't worry, you'll know SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:02:25 AM 1032 Views
yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying" moondog - 04/06/2010 07:51:16 AM 1195 Views
Re: yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying" SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 04:39:15 PM 1139 Views
the point moondog - 04/06/2010 06:07:46 PM 1025 Views
Well this should sort out part of the dispute SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:56:17 PM 1026 Views
Re: Well this should sort out part of the dispute Camilla - 04/06/2010 07:03:15 PM 1099 Views
Interesting, but not surprising SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 07:10:41 PM 1124 Views
Re: Interesting, but not surprising Camilla - 04/06/2010 07:14:51 PM 1140 Views
They have to bite though - that's the problem SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 08:24:17 PM 1150 Views
Re: They have to bite though - that's the problem Camilla - 04/06/2010 08:27:17 PM 1182 Views
Only if they want to maintain the blockade, which they shouldn't. Legolas - 04/06/2010 11:37:40 PM 1175 Views
I kind of doubt that the Israelis killed by Iranian rockets would be for lifting it. SilverWarder - 05/06/2010 06:27:05 AM 1216 Views
Dead people aren't generally for anything, I dare say. Legolas - 05/06/2010 10:38:54 AM 1255 Views
Might be a plan SilverWarder - 06/06/2010 12:28:36 AM 1191 Views
almost all weapons smuggled into gaza come from the tunnels under the current land barriers moondog - 06/06/2010 12:54:12 AM 1135 Views
Mmmhmmmm SilverWarder - 07/06/2010 08:25:09 AM 1102 Views
are you so blinded to think it would not be paraded as proof the blockade is working? moondog - 07/06/2010 08:48:25 AM 1150 Views
You should really Google before making such statements SilverWarder - 07/06/2010 08:50:52 PM 1486 Views
interesting how only one of those was direct to gaza. and that was in 2001.... moondog - 07/06/2010 11:45:14 PM 1019 Views
First you say that there was nothing SilverWarder - 08/06/2010 05:30:29 AM 966 Views
after this i am done moondog - 08/06/2010 07:31:18 AM 1254 Views
Fine with me - see here's the thing SilverWarder - 08/06/2010 03:01:04 PM 1236 Views
sounds like you think the blockade is working random thoughts - 07/06/2010 02:13:36 PM 1251 Views
what is it that you think the blockade is designed to do? moondog - 07/06/2010 04:25:39 PM 1178 Views
I would guess it has two main goals random thoughts - 07/06/2010 09:01:03 PM 1167 Views
well, here's how i see it, and i know we're probably going to disagree... moondog - 08/06/2010 02:02:32 AM 1716 Views
What you describe might well work - but only for westerners SilverWarder - 08/06/2010 03:11:34 PM 1240 Views
that would be treating this like an insurgency where you want to win hearts and minds random thoughts - 08/06/2010 05:11:39 PM 1734 Views
That's rather scary. Legolas - 04/06/2010 11:41:11 PM 1221 Views
Re: That's rather scary. Camilla - 05/06/2010 08:45:25 AM 1151 Views
And then there is this Camilla - 04/06/2010 07:04:50 PM 1168 Views
this really angers me *NM* Aisha - 04/06/2010 11:05:52 PM 646 Views
You are so silly. snoopcester - 05/06/2010 12:36:57 AM 1201 Views
That is good to know Camilla - 05/06/2010 08:46:56 AM 1249 Views
what do you want to bet who started the violence suddenly won't matter random thoughts - 04/06/2010 07:07:17 PM 1178 Views
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