Winter 2010? What version of Diplomacy are you playing?
Tom Send a noteboard - 31/05/2010 09:45:38 PM
My version starts in 1901.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Israeli attack on aid convoy
- 31/05/2010 10:21:02 AM
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Israel was in a no win situation
- 31/05/2010 12:09:13 PM
1399 Views
you do realize israel had plenty of options to deter the boats other than opening fire on them?
- 31/05/2010 06:20:03 PM
1497 Views
do you realize they didn't open fire on the ship?
- 31/05/2010 07:51:53 PM
1129 Views
supposedly the boat being boarded shouted "we are raising the white flag, stop shooting"
- 31/05/2010 07:54:49 PM
1354 Views
Why is it that the Israelis are routinely not believed and the Palestinian extremists are?
- 31/05/2010 08:17:09 PM
1379 Views
probably because israel has a history of opening fire on people they don't agree with?
- 31/05/2010 08:26:19 PM
1280 Views
And the Palestinians don't? And obnoxious Turks don't? *NM*
- 31/05/2010 09:02:20 PM
490 Views
this was not a palestinian boat
- 31/05/2010 09:09:47 PM
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I'm aware of that. But there were some Palestinians on board from what I read.
- 31/05/2010 10:03:59 PM
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And a holocaust survivor and a Scottish journalist. Quite the mixed bag, really. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 10:04:52 PM
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From what I heard, 11 dead.
- 31/05/2010 12:26:59 PM
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It's a PR disaster, surely.
- 31/05/2010 12:31:50 PM
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To be fair: they said they'd never let the flotilla through so what did people expect? *NM*
- 31/05/2010 02:01:10 PM
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A) No killings, and B) No open sea piracy.
- 31/05/2010 02:23:28 PM
1264 Views
Enforcing a blockade isn't piracy, and violence was a predictable result. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 02:35:35 PM
538 Views
That defense gets sketchy if it was in international waters. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 02:37:00 PM
539 Views
Why? Because of international "law"? I doubt the US will agree to do anything to Israel. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 02:55:29 PM
561 Views
And in turn I doubt China will agree to do anything about Iran.
- 31/05/2010 05:18:59 PM
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Interestingly enough, one of our problems with China seemd to vanish from the news...
- 01/06/2010 02:02:35 AM
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*shrug* Your opinions are not worth water in this question.
- 31/05/2010 03:05:31 PM
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ships are boarded in international waters all of the time *NM*
- 31/05/2010 07:53:53 PM
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Yes, but then the pirates are hunted down and shot by the russians. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 09:15:52 PM
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in this case it was Israel that hunt them down and shot them *NM*
- 01/06/2010 04:34:19 AM
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No, those would be the pirates. *NM*
- 01/06/2010 10:03:37 AM
587 Views
no those would be tghe radicals that got them selfs killed trying to run a blockade. *NM*
- 02/06/2010 01:42:23 AM
598 Views
What ship did they board? *NM*
- 02/06/2010 01:42:17 PM
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It is impressive that you are still trying
- 02/06/2010 02:59:02 PM
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no it is just a stupid and inaccurate analogy
- 02/06/2010 03:05:32 PM
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Well, that are two concepts that you are intimately familiar with...
- 02/06/2010 07:30:07 PM
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and talking with you only makes me more familar with the issues
- 02/06/2010 07:41:20 PM
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Calling me a Jew-hater now?
- 02/06/2010 08:23:08 PM
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you compare Israel to North Korea and want to talk about stupid
- 02/06/2010 08:34:03 PM
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Propaganda is propaganda. You're the one who chooses to believe in it. *NM*
- 02/06/2010 10:13:42 PM
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Um, I know what I expected: that they wouldn't kill anyone. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 04:02:38 PM
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Ideally, that wouldn't have happened. But when are real life situations ever ideal?
- 31/05/2010 04:29:50 PM
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That's a bit of a meager excuse. 
- 31/05/2010 04:42:35 PM
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- 31/05/2010 04:42:35 PM
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*NM*
Why did Israel have to waste time and effort "exhausting peaceful options" in the first place?
- 31/05/2010 05:41:59 PM
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I don't think it was so inexorable that the result would be that.
- 31/05/2010 05:57:29 PM
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To be fair: this is israel's typical response to international pro-palestinian protest groups
- 31/05/2010 06:37:25 PM
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This won't change anything
- 31/05/2010 06:04:54 PM
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America and Turkey are military allies, so they do care.
- 31/05/2010 06:14:21 PM
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yes and that alliance came in so handy back in 2003
- 31/05/2010 07:50:12 PM
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That nearly all went extremely wrong.
- 31/05/2010 08:20:41 PM
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Yes...why are we allied with a country like that?
- 31/05/2010 08:22:12 PM
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Question
- 31/05/2010 10:00:43 PM
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The Turkish people is certainly quite anti-American
- 31/05/2010 11:26:37 PM
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The Israelis warned them. If they resisted violently they knew they would/could get shot dead.
- 31/05/2010 02:34:38 PM
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An Israeli friend on fb
- 31/05/2010 04:15:32 PM
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That sounds like utter nonsense. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 04:18:06 PM
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Because? *NM*
- 31/05/2010 04:18:45 PM
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The Israeli army would know better than to send soldiers with paintball guns
- 31/05/2010 04:20:52 PM
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Because soldiers going into a dangerous situation don't carry paintball guns
- 31/05/2010 04:21:50 PM
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I highly doubt they held paintball guns.
- 31/05/2010 05:01:15 PM
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Not least if one goes on the latest accounts coming out
- 31/05/2010 05:07:46 PM
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I see, this may have caused the confusion...
- 01/06/2010 04:19:22 PM
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Actually, some Israeli military sources are saying that some commandos had paintball guns
- 01/06/2010 04:53:12 PM
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Paintball weapons? Weird. They don't hurt nad enough to incapacitate.
- 02/06/2010 01:32:33 AM
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It sucks, but I don't think the Israelis really had any choice.
- 31/05/2010 04:20:07 PM
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two points of criticism
- 31/05/2010 06:50:31 PM
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Those could be valid.
- 02/06/2010 05:45:35 PM
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On the blockade...
- 02/06/2010 06:06:24 PM
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three years is the number I keep seeing
- 02/06/2010 06:22:05 PM
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So what do you think would've happened if Israel hadn't tried to stop the convoy?
- 02/06/2010 06:47:52 PM
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Two pistols?
- 02/06/2010 07:06:35 PM
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pipes were last minute? there is video of them using them before the ships were even boarded
- 02/06/2010 07:43:06 PM
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There is footage of them preparing them before the Israeli forces arrived?
- 02/06/2010 07:46:26 PM
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look at the link I posted at the bottom
- 02/06/2010 08:03:18 PM
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Perhaps you linked the wrong one?
- 03/06/2010 01:13:33 PM
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you argument requires we believe they were surprised the IDF showed up
- 03/06/2010 01:59:07 PM
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the naval blockade has been firmly in place for the last 3-ish years, but....
- 03/06/2010 02:48:11 AM
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I'm a bit confused by what you're saying about Egypt.
- 03/06/2010 09:53:27 AM
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confused by which part?
- 03/06/2010 04:15:22 PM
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Nor does Egypt allow aid into Gaza, except for the occasional medical supply.
- 03/06/2010 04:21:27 PM
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egypt does open the border against israel's wishes though
- 03/06/2010 04:30:46 PM
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Only when it suits them to a) claim Arab brotherhood, and b) make political hay.
- 03/06/2010 05:58:54 PM
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Other sources don't agree
- 03/06/2010 04:29:03 PM
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ah yes. see, there are actually two different barriers being discussed here
- 04/06/2010 01:14:21 AM
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So Israel has committed international piracy so it can keep up the collective punishment of children
- 31/05/2010 04:52:40 PM
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Darn! You posted "stay classy" first.
- 31/05/2010 05:04:08 PM
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The UN treaty does not class this as piracy
- 02/06/2010 06:10:35 PM
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Interesting - I guess I need to rephrase to them acting like pirates
- 02/06/2010 06:58:18 PM
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I don't really have a bone in this fight
- 31/05/2010 04:54:59 PM
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And exactly how would you suggest doing this 'disabling'?
- 31/05/2010 05:02:21 PM
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Pretty easy actually
- 31/05/2010 05:14:34 PM
1100 Views
If Israel was out for blood, how come there were no injuired on all the previous convoys ?
- 31/05/2010 05:34:06 PM
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Because Israel didn't go insane trying to stop the previous convoys? And even let some of them pass. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 05:37:22 PM
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Who said the Israelis were "out for blood"? Most people just think it was a dumb move. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 07:58:14 PM
543 Views
What an amazing gift this will be for Sunni extremists and Shiite activists. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 05:40:04 PM
635 Views
You think they needed this sort of thing to get whipped into a frenzy?
- 31/05/2010 05:48:39 PM
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For themselves? No. But it will translate into a massive PR boon for them and their message.
- 31/05/2010 06:07:00 PM
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Lesson: Don't try and run a blockade manned by people who are better armed than you.
- 31/05/2010 05:40:16 PM
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America isn't blockading Cuba
- 31/05/2010 05:55:23 PM
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Fine, change Venezuelan to American and it's the same thing.
- 31/05/2010 05:59:50 PM
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Dude. There is no blockade. There are no American ships surrounding Cuba. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 06:04:22 PM
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Oh. Geeze I always thought the Americans had ships preventing vessils from reaching Cuba.
- 31/05/2010 06:18:42 PM
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I'm not sure if the US physically enforces it
- 31/05/2010 06:11:57 PM
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Well I'm not American.
- 31/05/2010 06:21:15 PM
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Europe and Canada trade plenty with Cuba - and go on holidays there.
- 31/05/2010 06:29:33 PM
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The point of that
- 31/05/2010 06:42:46 PM
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They do not enforce it. The executive branch knows they will lose if they get challenged in court.
- 31/05/2010 08:37:53 PM
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The biggest problem for Israel is that this incident didn't occur on the blockade line.
- 31/05/2010 06:25:38 PM
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I find it odd that innocent unarmed civilians can seriously injure armed commandos
- 31/05/2010 06:47:55 PM
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i never saw where they were called unarmed?
- 31/05/2010 08:33:03 PM
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we are pretty sure who fired first now
- 02/06/2010 03:06:39 PM
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oh, they released the footage shot on board the boat?
- 02/06/2010 04:13:25 PM
1220 Views
so you won't accept footage from the IDF? That will make believing whatever you want easier
- 02/06/2010 05:34:59 PM
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yes, i should only believe the one side who has a case to prove instead of listening to both
- 03/06/2010 02:51:05 AM
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that is a joke. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be your policy with Israel
- 03/06/2010 02:06:57 PM
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israel has a history of botching these things. forgive me if i follow the history...
- 04/06/2010 01:17:06 AM
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and the radicals are known for their honesty, atleasy in what you like to think is reality
- 04/06/2010 02:12:18 PM
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Turkey has threatened to send military vessels with future aid convoys.
- 31/05/2010 07:50:54 PM
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If they do that, we should kick them out of NATO.
- 31/05/2010 07:56:47 PM
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If by "help the Greek economy" you mean "make them bankrupt", it could work. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 08:04:14 PM
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What are you talking about? We'd subsidize their army and pump billions into their economy.
- 31/05/2010 08:06:44 PM
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I am talking about the fact that part of the reason for their current financial trouble...
- 31/05/2010 08:49:43 PM
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If I learned anything from Diplomacy, it was that
- 31/05/2010 09:03:36 PM
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Winter 2010? What version of Diplomacy are you playing?
- 31/05/2010 09:45:38 PM
1150 Views
UPDATE: Proof that IDF soldiers were attacked as they boarded the Turkish ship
- 31/05/2010 09:23:02 PM
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"Violent, extremist attack"? Are you for real?
- 31/05/2010 09:29:43 PM
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What else would you call it?
- 31/05/2010 09:43:01 PM
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Attempting to repel boarders? Or is that to unbiased a term for you?
- 31/05/2010 09:56:31 PM
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Except these "armed pirates" were soldiers.
- 31/05/2010 10:00:14 PM
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Acting illegally.
- 31/05/2010 10:01:31 PM
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I guess Americans off the Somali coast boarding vessils the suspect to be pirate ships...
- 31/05/2010 11:16:38 PM
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I'm quite sure they have legal permission to board from the owners of those ships *NM*
- 31/05/2010 11:29:08 PM
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I seriously doubt it.
- 31/05/2010 11:37:53 PM
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That's why I said "owners" and not "the guys running it" *NM*
- 01/06/2010 06:39:56 AM
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And yet most of the pirates own their own boats.
- 01/06/2010 03:50:47 PM
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I was talking about the hijacked ships
- 01/06/2010 04:01:02 PM
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Aparently it's routine now for militaries to pick up little boats of pirates.
- 01/06/2010 09:26:35 PM
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You think boarding ships legally passing through international waters is the same thing?
- 01/06/2010 03:55:03 PM
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legal seems to be a very fuzzy concept these days
- 01/06/2010 04:46:47 AM
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When it comes to international law, it can be applied when you aren't powerful enough
- 01/06/2010 07:56:50 AM
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As in Israel does what it likes and the US does the best it can to allow it.
- 01/06/2010 12:29:20 PM
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the ships publicly announced they were going to run the blockade
- 02/06/2010 01:37:00 AM
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Israel should have waited till they were in Israeli waters
- 02/06/2010 11:57:40 AM
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the timing? Israel is not the one who set the timing for the publicity stunt
- 02/06/2010 03:02:36 PM
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i highly doubt european MPs were expecting to be shot at by the IDF
- 03/06/2010 03:05:27 AM
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sorry but you are still wrong because atleast one of the ships did have a fight witht them
- 03/06/2010 02:12:10 PM
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Israel has no control of the actions of the IDF then?
- 03/06/2010 01:07:28 PM
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"The timing shows, I think, what the Israeli priority is - on a US holiday, again."
- 03/06/2010 02:22:58 PM
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are you for real?
- 01/06/2010 04:45:21 AM
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There was a misunderstanding, and I apologized to Dragonsoul. See above. *NM*
- 01/06/2010 11:13:08 AM
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Looks like they got what they asked for...
- 31/05/2010 10:00:53 PM
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Oh?
- 31/05/2010 10:24:09 PM
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Re: Oh?
- 01/06/2010 02:44:15 AM
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Ah, I follow that now.
- 01/06/2010 12:28:22 PM
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Re: Ah, I follow that now.
- 01/06/2010 04:02:48 PM
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Re: Ah, I follow that now.
- 01/06/2010 04:43:32 PM
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Again I ask you: Does that make American soldiers who board ships off the Somali coast....
- 01/06/2010 09:13:35 PM
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israel offered to take the aid packages because they wanted to keep the non-approved aid
- 01/06/2010 01:47:42 AM
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I guess it does make things simplier if you just always blame Israel
- 02/06/2010 01:44:56 AM
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i guess it makes things simpler if you don't allow for nuanced positions and take one side
- 02/06/2010 01:56:53 AM
1100 Views
I am blind? I am not the one ignoring the facts
- 02/06/2010 05:29:43 PM
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You are however the one who refuses to allow nuances.
- 02/06/2010 06:40:01 PM
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which nuances am I ignoring?
- 02/06/2010 07:37:54 PM
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Israel had hours more to go in
- 02/06/2010 07:51:14 PM
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Hmm
- 02/06/2010 08:09:48 PM
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so they were scheduled to arive on an American holiday?
- 02/06/2010 08:52:08 PM
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The first one where it has ended in Israeli troops kiling people?
- 03/06/2010 01:02:12 PM
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what would have been the point of waiting?
- 02/06/2010 08:54:57 PM
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if they had waited, they could have claimed the moral high ground that they did everything possible
- 03/06/2010 02:24:49 AM
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yes because their critics are so open minded
- 03/06/2010 03:38:46 PM
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you are just as close minded as you claim israel's critics to be.
- 03/06/2010 04:29:59 PM
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refusing to to believe silliness is not being close minded
- 03/06/2010 05:50:26 PM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
- 02/06/2010 08:27:20 PM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
- 02/06/2010 09:23:22 PM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
- 03/06/2010 10:25:01 AM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
- 03/06/2010 03:07:56 PM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
- 03/06/2010 07:02:34 PM
1188 Views
Yes, there were much more people aboard than needed to get the ships where they were going
- 02/06/2010 07:05:26 PM
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so who placed those in people in harms way to make a politcal statement?
- 02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM
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Everyone I'm aware of who was on the ships chose to do so themselves
- 02/06/2010 10:13:53 PM
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if their stance is non violence then they need to condemn anyone who started the violence
- 03/06/2010 03:10:46 PM
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your facts have nothing to do with the discussion in this thread.
- 03/06/2010 02:42:06 AM
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so everything is Israel's fault. Remoind me again how they came to be in Gaza
- 03/06/2010 01:55:14 PM
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you're being extremist again. it's not very becoming... *NM*
- 03/06/2010 04:22:18 PM
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not believing that Israel can just leave Gaza alone makes me an extremist?
- 03/06/2010 06:02:15 PM
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translating everyting i say into "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist. *NM*
- 04/06/2010 01:24:33 AM
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saying "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist *NM*
- 04/06/2010 02:13:22 PM
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*NM*
If the Turks had any balls
- 31/05/2010 09:35:32 PM
1256 Views
Because you know....
- 31/05/2010 09:44:10 PM
1173 Views
If the Turks had any integrity, they'd own up to their ongoing genocide of the Kurds
- 31/05/2010 09:46:53 PM
905 Views
Now you're moving from Turcophobia to blatant fiction. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 09:56:00 PM
550 Views
Fine. How about they own up to their genocide of the Armenians then?
- 31/05/2010 09:57:48 PM
1141 Views
Fair enough stance, but that doesn't justify Tom making things up. "Ongoing genocide" is nonsense. *NM*
- 31/05/2010 10:16:53 PM
530 Views
the Turks are assholes in regards to their complete denial of the past (Armenia, kurds)
- 31/05/2010 09:56:29 PM
1278 Views
wait a second...... "ongoing genocide of the Kurds"
- 31/05/2010 09:59:18 PM
1397 Views
Yes, for both you and Legolas, allow me to share the following:
- 31/05/2010 10:16:18 PM
1486 Views
That's not "ongoing".
- 31/05/2010 10:29:36 PM
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The fact that it happened within the past five years is recent enough for me.
- 01/06/2010 12:14:24 AM
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The absence of anything resembling genocide or massacres dates back a lot longer than that.
- 01/06/2010 12:28:32 AM
1348 Views
Here's something recent fromSmithsonian.
- 01/06/2010 01:09:58 AM
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Uh-oh. Ocalan just announced he's abandoning efforts to seek dialogue with Turkey.
- 01/06/2010 04:48:24 AM
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The Turkish response has been making me wonder about something.
- 01/06/2010 05:38:42 AM
1199 Views
It does make sense. Obama has put alot of effort into renewing the peace process
- 01/06/2010 07:14:40 AM
1232 Views
Russian websites have speculated it was intentional Turkish provocation.
- 01/06/2010 02:04:39 PM
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Here is some video of the innocent victims attacking the IDF
- 02/06/2010 06:03:33 PM
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you're still posting video released by the IDF to prove the IDF's case.
- 03/06/2010 03:01:16 AM
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dude lookat that camera angle and tell me who was shooting it
- 03/06/2010 02:08:02 PM
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look at who posted that video and tell me a longer version exists
- 03/06/2010 04:21:26 PM
1211 Views
so the IDF is guilty until proven innocent?
- 03/06/2010 04:24:45 PM
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as i said to you before. if you are found running from a crime did you commit that crime?
- 03/06/2010 04:34:14 PM
1089 Views
have you not seen the footage of the men being attacked as they came off of the helicopter?
- 03/06/2010 05:51:47 PM
994 Views
Did you even watch the video?
- 03/06/2010 09:07:45 PM
1371 Views
i've seen both videos, and they both begin in the middle of the confrontation
- 04/06/2010 01:28:24 AM
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No, they don't
- 04/06/2010 05:58:40 AM
1021 Views
actually, yes they do. but you will obviously not understand so i am done. *NM*
- 04/06/2010 07:53:40 AM
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I think his point
- 04/06/2010 02:40:43 PM
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Oh, I get that
- 04/06/2010 03:18:36 PM
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Re: Oh, I get that
- 04/06/2010 03:25:05 PM
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Re: Oh, I get that
- 04/06/2010 04:43:35 PM
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Re: Oh, I get that
- 04/06/2010 04:58:04 PM
1143 Views
Not what I said
- 04/06/2010 05:38:30 PM
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Re: Not what I said
- 04/06/2010 05:41:06 PM
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Re: Not what I said
- 04/06/2010 05:53:16 PM
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Re: Not what I said
- 04/06/2010 05:57:34 PM
1094 Views
Still not understanding
- 04/06/2010 06:16:04 PM
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Re: Still not understanding
- 04/06/2010 06:17:34 PM
1162 Views
That's silly
- 03/06/2010 04:28:34 PM
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i know the helicopters were not gunships, but there is such a thing as aggressive flying
- 03/06/2010 04:32:18 PM
1147 Views
You've GOT to be joking
- 03/06/2010 09:02:35 PM
1168 Views
i've already conceded the point, there is no need for insults please
- 04/06/2010 01:30:08 AM
1158 Views
When I insult you - don't worry, you'll know
- 04/06/2010 06:02:25 AM
1036 Views
yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying"
- 04/06/2010 07:51:16 AM
1199 Views
Well this should sort out part of the dispute
- 04/06/2010 06:56:17 PM
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Re: Well this should sort out part of the dispute
- 04/06/2010 07:03:15 PM
1102 Views
Interesting, but not surprising
- 04/06/2010 07:10:41 PM
1127 Views
Re: Interesting, but not surprising
- 04/06/2010 07:14:51 PM
1143 Views
They have to bite though - that's the problem
- 04/06/2010 08:24:17 PM
1154 Views
Only if they want to maintain the blockade, which they shouldn't.
- 04/06/2010 11:37:40 PM
1178 Views
I kind of doubt that the Israelis killed by Iranian rockets would be for lifting it.
- 05/06/2010 06:27:05 AM
1220 Views
Dead people aren't generally for anything, I dare say.
- 05/06/2010 10:38:54 AM
1258 Views
Might be a plan
- 06/06/2010 12:28:36 AM
1194 Views
almost all weapons smuggled into gaza come from the tunnels under the current land barriers
- 06/06/2010 12:54:12 AM
1138 Views
Mmmhmmmm
- 07/06/2010 08:25:09 AM
1105 Views
are you so blinded to think it would not be paraded as proof the blockade is working?
- 07/06/2010 08:48:25 AM
1153 Views
You should really Google before making such statements
- 07/06/2010 08:50:52 PM
1489 Views
interesting how only one of those was direct to gaza. and that was in 2001....
- 07/06/2010 11:45:14 PM
1023 Views
First you say that there was nothing
- 08/06/2010 05:30:29 AM
969 Views
sounds like you think the blockade is working
- 07/06/2010 02:13:36 PM
1254 Views
what is it that you think the blockade is designed to do?
- 07/06/2010 04:25:39 PM
1181 Views
I would guess it has two main goals
- 07/06/2010 09:01:03 PM
1170 Views
well, here's how i see it, and i know we're probably going to disagree...
- 08/06/2010 02:02:32 AM
1720 Views
that would be treating this like an insurgency where you want to win hearts and minds
- 08/06/2010 05:11:39 PM
1737 Views
And then there is this
- 04/06/2010 07:04:50 PM
1172 Views
what do you want to bet who started the violence suddenly won't matter
- 04/06/2010 07:07:17 PM
1181 Views