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Yeah, to whom was the claim on that land given? Joel Send a noteboard - 07/06/2010 10:35:42 PM
What a way to conflate history into a mess that means absolutely nothing. Essentially, what you just said was that every fictitious tribe in the Bible is an Arab to the Jews. That is patently absurd. You then said that this "historical" record of conflict is the reason for the Arab-Israeli conflict. It isn't. It's because of the other things written in the Bible, the "I give this land to you" language. The land was supposedly in the hands of several fictitious groups and some that were probably historic, but none of them were Arabs, and none were people we would recognize as "Palestinian".

Jews lived in Egypt calmly, peacefully and happily for millennia and recited every Passover "remember that you were slaves in the land of Egypt" without hating their neighbors.

The Jews lay claim to the land of Canaan and have continuously for thousands of years. THAT is part of their religious understanding of who they are as a nation, something that is burned into their consciousness. HOWEVER, THEY HAVEN'T BEEN FIGHTING THE ARABS FOR MILLENNIA. This conflict is purely recent. How many ways do I need to say this for you to get it? Maybe I should get out sock puppets?

Abraham, right? Forefather of all Jews AND Arabs. Dated no earlier than 1900 BC and no later than 1600 BC by people who think he may have actually existed. What state was the British Foreign Office in ca. the 2nd Millennium BC? ;) I'm not saying everyone with whom the Bible claims the Jews had differences was Arabs, obviously. A lot of them were though, and certainly Ishmael and Haman, if they did exist, are identifiably Arab, the one the progenitor of all Arabs and the other consistently called an Amelekite, whom both Jews and Arabs consider Arabic. Meanwhile, those who claim Isaac as their forefather also lay claim to Canaan. Those who claim Ishmael make the same claim through the same man, Abraham; Islam even accepts the story of Abrahams abortive sacrifice, but replaces Isaac with Ishmael. Yeah, the conflict here is TOTALLY about what Europe and America did in the 20th Century. :rolleyes:

I'm deliberately avoiding the issue of whether the events recounted in the Koran and Bible actually happened, not because I don't want to have that debate (though I don't) but because IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY HAPPENED AS LONG AS ARABS AND JEWS BELIEVE THEY DID.

It's not that I don't understand. It's that I'm not convinced.
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Jacqueline Rose on the Dreyfus affair and related problems, in the LRB - 06/06/2010 11:28:14 AM 996 Views
What she has to say about Dreyfus is very interesting. - 06/06/2010 04:48:16 PM 795 Views
Re: What she has to say about Dreyfus is very interesting. - 06/06/2010 04:56:32 PM 731 Views
*remains amused at the suggestion of the Dreyfus Affairs "pertinence" to "current" events* - 06/06/2010 05:14:23 PM 715 Views
I agree in part and (strongly) disagree in part. - 06/06/2010 05:40:26 PM 693 Views
"If it's an eternal struggle, how could there ever be a solution or a peace?" - 06/06/2010 06:20:39 PM 763 Views
Purim may or may not refer to a historic event. Even if it does, Haman was not likely an Arab. - 07/06/2010 12:00:05 AM 612 Views
I second your main point. - 07/06/2010 12:09:42 AM 622 Views
I don't discount that there is Arab blood in many or even most "Arabs". - 07/06/2010 12:18:32 AM 620 Views
Okay, fair enough then. *NM* - 07/06/2010 08:45:19 AM 277 Views
The holiday is centuries old and real, regardless. - 07/06/2010 12:28:59 AM 693 Views
You're still missing the major point here. - 07/06/2010 12:44:08 AM 611 Views
That seems a rather limited view of history. - 07/06/2010 01:10:11 AM 723 Views
What the Hell are you going on about? - 07/06/2010 04:08:19 AM 671 Views
Oooh - 07/06/2010 11:07:43 AM 533 Views
Yeah, to whom was the claim on that land given? - 07/06/2010 10:35:42 PM 668 Views
jeez Joel... - 07/06/2010 04:24:47 AM 655 Views
No, the Persians are not Arabs. - 07/06/2010 10:09:47 PM 771 Views
I (coincidentally) stumbled across those infamous hadith passages about Jews the other day. - 07/06/2010 09:41:39 AM 693 Views
So? - 07/06/2010 10:50:49 PM 689 Views
So the relevance of apocalyptic passages is close to zero. - 07/06/2010 11:55:05 PM 639 Views
Not to mention - 08/06/2010 09:09:27 AM 581 Views
Then why are they canon? - 08/06/2010 06:25:09 PM 825 Views
are you claiming that people would pull some things out of holy text and ignore the rest? - 08/06/2010 12:16:41 PM 716 Views
*NM* - 08/06/2010 01:16:13 PM 260 Views
well, for me this just proves why we are not supposed to live among non-Jews - 06/06/2010 11:39:45 PM 788 Views
how so? - 06/06/2010 11:41:18 PM 571 Views
It reminds me of what I kept thinking as I read it. - 07/06/2010 12:51:36 AM 603 Views
couldn't get past the part where anyone who opposes Obama is a racist *NM* - 08/06/2010 01:40:07 AM 441 Views
You hallucinated? *NM* - 08/06/2010 08:39:37 AM 317 Views
No, that would've been one of the places where she should've shut up. *NM* - 08/06/2010 08:58:11 AM 256 Views
No - 08/06/2010 09:08:04 AM 579 Views
I think he's not talking about that bit, but about the very first paragraph. - 08/06/2010 09:30:21 AM 703 Views
If there was more I didn't get far enough to hear it - 08/06/2010 12:09:47 PM 572 Views
That's the problem with the speech - the large majority of what she had to say was worthwhile. - 08/06/2010 01:15:39 PM 623 Views
The problem is blatant bias - 08/06/2010 02:24:57 PM 609 Views

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