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Lies, deception, and fraud, from a legal POV, aren't the same Isaac Send a noteboard - 22/07/2010 09:10:16 PM
Tricking someone into sleeping with you is wrong but it isn't rape. I would agree there could be cases were it was true and the twin brother case would fall into that. I can imagine other cases as well such as slipping into a drunk women's bed and letting her believe you are her husband or boyfriend. If on the other hand I said I was the base player for Stiff Little Finger and some girls sleeps with me that isn't rape. It may be wrong but it isn't rape and it should not be considered a crime.


I didn't saying tricking someone into having sex was definitely rape, I said fraud leading to it could be. Let's look at fraud

Common law fraud has nine elements:
1. a representation of an existing fact;
2. its materiality;
3. its falsity;
4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.

You typically have to be able to prove all of that occurred, so the difference between a lie and actionable fraud tends to be those last three. Trying to establish fraud took place where sex is concerned is very hard, if one looks at that list, compared to other cases of fraud, that's all. Now if fraud can be established, then yes I think rape would be a legit conclusion. This a case - and mind you, I'm talking about Rape by Fraud, a real law in some states, not Rape by Deception, which is different - this boy would seem safe because of #2 and #8. A man's first name, in of itself, is not material, unless maybe the girl could establish she has a fetish for the name David and he was aware of that. That it implies he's Jewish, as the source of the deception, runs into #8, she has no reasonable right to assume the first name indicates he's Jewish. Now, her discriminatory taste for Jews and promiscuous behavior are no business of the law, and I think a lot of people are putting that above other things in the case, it doesn't matter. It's those 9 up above that matter, or would matter were this case taking place in Tennessee for instance, where Rape by Fraud is a law. Of course, barring rape, one can take normal civil legal action on such a case, and always has been able to, people just don't because it's hard to prove, 'weird', and most people don't know you could.

So, the case you raise, 'band member', is going to hit #8 also, people don't have a reasonable right to rely on such a claim without seeking verification, they are going to have problems establishing it was material as well, though from a legal POV it doesn't really matter if you're reasons are petty, but it does tend to prevent legal action, no one likes admitting to being stupid or petty in their romantic interludes.

Now, leaving out rape, one can pursue fraud based sex in a civil court pretty much anywhere, people just don't, and the ethics of the plaintiff aren't really important, it's just hard to establish it took place or to get a value for #9 - however, people do I gather use it as a defense in some cases, such as child support or statutory rape.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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Palestinian jailed for rape after claiming to be Jewish - 22/07/2010 03:24:15 PM 1206 Views
A rose by any other name? - 22/07/2010 03:42:04 PM 618 Views
that is scary - 22/07/2010 04:30:30 PM 672 Views
Re: that is scary - 22/07/2010 05:47:38 PM 582 Views
If a girl has a stuffed bra is that rape? - 22/07/2010 06:12:01 PM 604 Views
isnt that something Mel Gibson was upset about? - 22/07/2010 08:20:07 PM 580 Views
lol - 23/07/2010 02:37:07 PM 611 Views
Pretty messed up right there. - 22/07/2010 04:45:37 PM 682 Views
Unles it was a line - 22/07/2010 04:59:45 PM 558 Views
Deception is not coercion. *NM* - 22/07/2010 05:40:20 PM 229 Views
Erm... did you post in the right place? *NM* - 22/07/2010 05:55:54 PM 246 Views
Correct location, incorrect interpretation. *NM* - 22/07/2010 07:45:20 PM 225 Views
Re: Correct location, incorrect interpretation. - 22/07/2010 07:49:10 PM 652 Views
Hi, I'm Daniel. - 22/07/2010 06:43:52 PM 621 Views
"Easy" does not equal blind. *NM* - 22/07/2010 06:49:37 PM 228 Views
Why loose your venom on me? - 22/07/2010 07:03:07 PM 594 Views
Just to play devil's advocate here, rape by deception or rape by fraud are possible - 22/07/2010 06:53:38 PM 724 Views
So... - 22/07/2010 07:19:57 PM 572 Views
Re: So... - 22/07/2010 08:26:01 PM 616 Views
Got it. - 22/07/2010 09:38:59 PM 581 Views
It establishes it's possible - 22/07/2010 10:14:47 PM 703 Views
I am not sure I agree with that - 22/07/2010 07:31:30 PM 722 Views
Lies, deception, and fraud, from a legal POV, aren't the same - 22/07/2010 09:10:16 PM 632 Views
here is another article about why he said his name was Daniel - 22/07/2010 09:50:25 PM 864 Views
That just makes this even MORE STUPID. - 22/07/2010 10:33:52 PM 659 Views
I was calling him David wasn't I? - 22/07/2010 10:37:27 PM 657 Views
when you assume you make a victim out of you and a rapist out of me - 22/07/2010 08:28:44 PM 874 Views
Beyond stupid - 22/07/2010 08:33:34 PM 642 Views
oh good lord this is ridiculous. - 22/07/2010 10:28:31 PM 626 Views
Re: oh good lord this is ridiculous. - 22/07/2010 10:52:40 PM 549 Views
I sure hope we can! - 23/07/2010 01:36:08 AM 658 Views
So my friend who introduces himself as a Californian firefighting smoke jumper is a rapist? *NM* - 22/07/2010 11:16:23 PM 237 Views
yes he is - 23/07/2010 01:25:34 AM 508 Views
"Passing" and miscegenation used to be illegal in many states. Looks like Israel is still... - 23/07/2010 03:22:52 AM 940 Views
Re: "Passing" and miscegenation used to be illegal in many states. Looks like Israel is still... - 23/07/2010 04:38:27 AM 686 Views
Perhaps you were talking about Israel. I was talking about racism/ethnocentrism and how it... - 23/07/2010 05:34:23 AM 706 Views
Interesting - 23/07/2010 10:31:48 AM 593 Views
I'm not sure. - 25/07/2010 02:21:24 AM 723 Views
A bit more detail on this - 23/07/2010 04:26:52 PM 683 Views
still should only qualify as fraud not rape *NM* - 23/07/2010 04:37:39 PM 255 Views
Like I said - it doesn't make it any less stupid *NM* - 26/07/2010 08:19:47 PM 213 Views
That's what you get for spilling your seed in a Jewess. *NM* - 23/07/2010 11:03:15 PM 336 Views

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