Active Users:159 Time:02/06/2024 05:03:28 AM
Lies, deception, and fraud, from a legal POV, aren't the same Isaac Send a noteboard - 22/07/2010 09:10:16 PM
Tricking someone into sleeping with you is wrong but it isn't rape. I would agree there could be cases were it was true and the twin brother case would fall into that. I can imagine other cases as well such as slipping into a drunk women's bed and letting her believe you are her husband or boyfriend. If on the other hand I said I was the base player for Stiff Little Finger and some girls sleeps with me that isn't rape. It may be wrong but it isn't rape and it should not be considered a crime.


I didn't saying tricking someone into having sex was definitely rape, I said fraud leading to it could be. Let's look at fraud

Common law fraud has nine elements:
1. a representation of an existing fact;
2. its materiality;
3. its falsity;
4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.

You typically have to be able to prove all of that occurred, so the difference between a lie and actionable fraud tends to be those last three. Trying to establish fraud took place where sex is concerned is very hard, if one looks at that list, compared to other cases of fraud, that's all. Now if fraud can be established, then yes I think rape would be a legit conclusion. This a case - and mind you, I'm talking about Rape by Fraud, a real law in some states, not Rape by Deception, which is different - this boy would seem safe because of #2 and #8. A man's first name, in of itself, is not material, unless maybe the girl could establish she has a fetish for the name David and he was aware of that. That it implies he's Jewish, as the source of the deception, runs into #8, she has no reasonable right to assume the first name indicates he's Jewish. Now, her discriminatory taste for Jews and promiscuous behavior are no business of the law, and I think a lot of people are putting that above other things in the case, it doesn't matter. It's those 9 up above that matter, or would matter were this case taking place in Tennessee for instance, where Rape by Fraud is a law. Of course, barring rape, one can take normal civil legal action on such a case, and always has been able to, people just don't because it's hard to prove, 'weird', and most people don't know you could.

So, the case you raise, 'band member', is going to hit #8 also, people don't have a reasonable right to rely on such a claim without seeking verification, they are going to have problems establishing it was material as well, though from a legal POV it doesn't really matter if you're reasons are petty, but it does tend to prevent legal action, no one likes admitting to being stupid or petty in their romantic interludes.

Now, leaving out rape, one can pursue fraud based sex in a civil court pretty much anywhere, people just don't, and the ethics of the plaintiff aren't really important, it's just hard to establish it took place or to get a value for #9 - however, people do I gather use it as a defense in some cases, such as child support or statutory rape.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Reply to message
Palestinian jailed for rape after claiming to be Jewish - 22/07/2010 03:24:15 PM 1208 Views
A rose by any other name? - 22/07/2010 03:42:04 PM 620 Views
that is scary - 22/07/2010 04:30:30 PM 674 Views
Re: that is scary - 22/07/2010 05:47:38 PM 584 Views
If a girl has a stuffed bra is that rape? - 22/07/2010 06:12:01 PM 606 Views
isnt that something Mel Gibson was upset about? - 22/07/2010 08:20:07 PM 582 Views
lol - 23/07/2010 02:37:07 PM 613 Views
Pretty messed up right there. - 22/07/2010 04:45:37 PM 684 Views
Unles it was a line - 22/07/2010 04:59:45 PM 560 Views
Deception is not coercion. *NM* - 22/07/2010 05:40:20 PM 231 Views
Erm... did you post in the right place? *NM* - 22/07/2010 05:55:54 PM 248 Views
Correct location, incorrect interpretation. *NM* - 22/07/2010 07:45:20 PM 227 Views
Re: Correct location, incorrect interpretation. - 22/07/2010 07:49:10 PM 654 Views
Hi, I'm Daniel. - 22/07/2010 06:43:52 PM 623 Views
"Easy" does not equal blind. *NM* - 22/07/2010 06:49:37 PM 230 Views
Why loose your venom on me? - 22/07/2010 07:03:07 PM 596 Views
Just to play devil's advocate here, rape by deception or rape by fraud are possible - 22/07/2010 06:53:38 PM 727 Views
So... - 22/07/2010 07:19:57 PM 574 Views
Re: So... - 22/07/2010 08:26:01 PM 619 Views
Got it. - 22/07/2010 09:38:59 PM 583 Views
It establishes it's possible - 22/07/2010 10:14:47 PM 705 Views
I am not sure I agree with that - 22/07/2010 07:31:30 PM 724 Views
Lies, deception, and fraud, from a legal POV, aren't the same - 22/07/2010 09:10:16 PM 635 Views
here is another article about why he said his name was Daniel - 22/07/2010 09:50:25 PM 866 Views
That just makes this even MORE STUPID. - 22/07/2010 10:33:52 PM 662 Views
I was calling him David wasn't I? - 22/07/2010 10:37:27 PM 659 Views
when you assume you make a victim out of you and a rapist out of me - 22/07/2010 08:28:44 PM 877 Views
Beyond stupid - 22/07/2010 08:33:34 PM 644 Views
oh good lord this is ridiculous. - 22/07/2010 10:28:31 PM 628 Views
Re: oh good lord this is ridiculous. - 22/07/2010 10:52:40 PM 551 Views
I sure hope we can! - 23/07/2010 01:36:08 AM 662 Views
So my friend who introduces himself as a Californian firefighting smoke jumper is a rapist? *NM* - 22/07/2010 11:16:23 PM 240 Views
yes he is - 23/07/2010 01:25:34 AM 514 Views
"Passing" and miscegenation used to be illegal in many states. Looks like Israel is still... - 23/07/2010 03:22:52 AM 943 Views
Re: "Passing" and miscegenation used to be illegal in many states. Looks like Israel is still... - 23/07/2010 04:38:27 AM 688 Views
Perhaps you were talking about Israel. I was talking about racism/ethnocentrism and how it... - 23/07/2010 05:34:23 AM 708 Views
Interesting - 23/07/2010 10:31:48 AM 595 Views
I'm not sure. - 25/07/2010 02:21:24 AM 726 Views
A bit more detail on this - 23/07/2010 04:26:52 PM 685 Views
still should only qualify as fraud not rape *NM* - 23/07/2010 04:37:39 PM 257 Views
Like I said - it doesn't make it any less stupid *NM* - 26/07/2010 08:19:47 PM 214 Views
That's what you get for spilling your seed in a Jewess. *NM* - 23/07/2010 11:03:15 PM 338 Views

Reply to Message