You pre-empted one of the comments I was going to make...
Legolas Send a noteboard - 25/07/2010 12:12:56 AM
which was, only in America is gay adoption more acceptable than gay marriage, elsewhere these two things tend to happen in the opposite order. One possible reason for that that I see - but since that's a reason having to do with America's pecularities rather than with Europe's, I'm not particularly well-informed on the details - is the notoriously defective foster care / orphanage system in the US. Or at least the perception that said system is awful. Nobody wants to see children suffer, so if foster care is such a frightful prospect, one can see how conservatives would view gay adoption as a lesser evil to the child not being adopted at all.
Other than that, religion obviously has something to do with it. The obvious argument against gay adoption - "doesn't a child need a father and a mother both?" - can doubtlessly be a cover for mere homophobia in the US and Europe both, but it doesn't have to be, and it still has a certain respectability even on a scientific level as gay adoption is new enough as a societal phenomenon that scientific research on it is limited. Against gay marriage, on the other hand, no serious scientific arguments can be brought, and the opponents have little ammunition outside religion. Since religion is a far less powerful force in society in (most countries of) Western Europe than in the US, the case against gay marriage is far weaker than that against gay adoption.
If one is going to study this comparison in detail, though, Spain has to be the focus, I would think. Spain has a large conservative religious population that is not all that different from America's on topics like homosexuality or abortion (there's currently controversy over the government's recent loosening of abortion laws), so it must be very interesting to see how things are going there. As long as the socialists are in power, Spain's social policies will remain rather liberal, but I really wonder whether the conservatives will try to turn back the clock if they regain power, and how far if so. Real homophobia is not acceptable in any mainstream party in Western Europe anymore, including the Spanish conservative party (Partido Popular), but that certainly doesn't mean that that party approves of gay marriage.
As far as the rest of the article goes, I find it unforgiveable that the author acts as if higher studies are an essential part of every life path, and as if the millions of people who don't do higher studies are just failures. I realize that in the US, it's rather less socially acceptable than here to point out the obvious reality that some people are smarter than others, but surely it's not taboo to acknowledge that for millions of American high school kids, university would be aiming too high - and hence a gigantic waste of money. Millions of people will end up, even in modern service economies, in jobs that require at most a few years of community college after HS. And it's plenty natural that those people will have children earlier - at a biologically preferable age, one might add.
To add insult to injury and throw some more words around that are taboo in America, I might add that the author's "blue world and red world" sound rather a lot like "upper class and lower class", or "middle class and working class" if you will (since the real upper class is always so small in numbers). Because we all know that every state, Blue or Red, has its Blue and its Red areas, and within those areas some social circles that will be more Red and others that will be more Blue - generally the same kinds of circles in different places, too. And that the real divide in terms of too-young pregnancies, shotgun weddings, and the like, is more between rich and poor than it is between Democrat and Republican, or liberal and conservative, despite Bristol Palin.
Yet another entirely different quibble is that the author doesn't dwell much on divorce, its effect on children, and the entire topic of "serial monogamy" and its desirability. Obviously he can't tackle everything in one article, but I think it's unfair to social conservatives to ignore that issue, because with divorces being as harmful to children as they seem to be in most cases, "the defense of marriage" (in a literal sense without DoMA connotations) and the bringing down of the divorce rate is indeed important. To be sure, the way they're going about that goal is counterproductive in the case of "no sex before marriage", and irrelevant and pointless in the case of "no gay marriage", but it's natural enough for them to try and salvage what they can of the old model, which for all its faults did not saddle all these childrens with divorce traumas. (And then we get into how surely children back in the days suffered worse things, somehow without anyone noticing symptoms of a suffered trauma afterwards, which is an even bigger can of worms that I won't get into here...)
So yeah, it's absolutely a fascinating topic, but the author rubs me the wrong way a few too many times for me to like the article much. Part of that is no doubt due to the short format and the omissions that logically follow from that, but part is also really the author's fault.
Other than that, religion obviously has something to do with it. The obvious argument against gay adoption - "doesn't a child need a father and a mother both?" - can doubtlessly be a cover for mere homophobia in the US and Europe both, but it doesn't have to be, and it still has a certain respectability even on a scientific level as gay adoption is new enough as a societal phenomenon that scientific research on it is limited. Against gay marriage, on the other hand, no serious scientific arguments can be brought, and the opponents have little ammunition outside religion. Since religion is a far less powerful force in society in (most countries of) Western Europe than in the US, the case against gay marriage is far weaker than that against gay adoption.
If one is going to study this comparison in detail, though, Spain has to be the focus, I would think. Spain has a large conservative religious population that is not all that different from America's on topics like homosexuality or abortion (there's currently controversy over the government's recent loosening of abortion laws), so it must be very interesting to see how things are going there. As long as the socialists are in power, Spain's social policies will remain rather liberal, but I really wonder whether the conservatives will try to turn back the clock if they regain power, and how far if so. Real homophobia is not acceptable in any mainstream party in Western Europe anymore, including the Spanish conservative party (Partido Popular), but that certainly doesn't mean that that party approves of gay marriage.
As far as the rest of the article goes, I find it unforgiveable that the author acts as if higher studies are an essential part of every life path, and as if the millions of people who don't do higher studies are just failures. I realize that in the US, it's rather less socially acceptable than here to point out the obvious reality that some people are smarter than others, but surely it's not taboo to acknowledge that for millions of American high school kids, university would be aiming too high - and hence a gigantic waste of money. Millions of people will end up, even in modern service economies, in jobs that require at most a few years of community college after HS. And it's plenty natural that those people will have children earlier - at a biologically preferable age, one might add.
To add insult to injury and throw some more words around that are taboo in America, I might add that the author's "blue world and red world" sound rather a lot like "upper class and lower class", or "middle class and working class" if you will (since the real upper class is always so small in numbers). Because we all know that every state, Blue or Red, has its Blue and its Red areas, and within those areas some social circles that will be more Red and others that will be more Blue - generally the same kinds of circles in different places, too. And that the real divide in terms of too-young pregnancies, shotgun weddings, and the like, is more between rich and poor than it is between Democrat and Republican, or liberal and conservative, despite Bristol Palin.
Yet another entirely different quibble is that the author doesn't dwell much on divorce, its effect on children, and the entire topic of "serial monogamy" and its desirability. Obviously he can't tackle everything in one article, but I think it's unfair to social conservatives to ignore that issue, because with divorces being as harmful to children as they seem to be in most cases, "the defense of marriage" (in a literal sense without DoMA connotations) and the bringing down of the divorce rate is indeed important. To be sure, the way they're going about that goal is counterproductive in the case of "no sex before marriage", and irrelevant and pointless in the case of "no gay marriage", but it's natural enough for them to try and salvage what they can of the old model, which for all its faults did not saddle all these childrens with divorce traumas. (And then we get into how surely children back in the days suffered worse things, somehow without anyone noticing symptoms of a suffered trauma afterwards, which is an even bigger can of worms that I won't get into here...)
So yeah, it's absolutely a fascinating topic, but the author rubs me the wrong way a few too many times for me to like the article much. Part of that is no doubt due to the short format and the omissions that logically follow from that, but part is also really the author's fault.
Red Families, Blue Families, Gay Families, and the Search for a New Normal
24/07/2010 05:56:09 AM
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This guy needs an editor. "Alright" is not all right. *NM*
24/07/2010 07:44:40 AM
- 74 Views
Is that really all you have to say about that article?
24/07/2010 12:14:11 PM
- 180 Views
When I'm on my iPhone I'm limited to short snark.
24/07/2010 10:21:48 PM
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It's a shame forum posts don't have "Sent from my iPhone" at the bottom like e-mails do.
25/07/2010 12:00:12 AM
- 171 Views
What, so we can have the excuse for writing shitty posts?
25/07/2010 01:52:01 AM
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I understand a lot of black people oppose gay marriage.
25/07/2010 01:02:19 PM
- 171 Views
Two things
25/07/2010 01:43:56 PM
- 169 Views
You shouldn't underestimate the power of religion in Africa as well.
25/07/2010 01:51:59 PM
- 157 Views
BS it is culture not religion
25/07/2010 03:21:59 AM
- 177 Views
That's a fascinating insight, although it does set my "oversimplification" alarm bells ringing.
24/07/2010 01:02:38 PM
- 200 Views
I agree that it seems overly simplified
24/07/2010 03:26:13 PM
- 185 Views
what do you mean don't assciate red/blue with republican/democrat?
26/07/2010 04:34:18 PM
- 151 Views
I know, but in the context of what he's discussing...
26/07/2010 05:43:29 PM
- 150 Views
This is a very interesting subject. I'll link to an older article inside.
24/07/2010 05:50:47 PM
- 175 Views
You pre-empted one of the comments I was going to make...
25/07/2010 12:12:56 AM
- 189 Views
Try reading the article to which I linked in the post above yours.
25/07/2010 03:01:21 AM
- 163 Views
In america once you account inflation and after taxes
25/07/2010 05:16:35 AM
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Not sure what the relevance of that to my post is?
25/07/2010 10:52:29 AM
- 157 Views
You were saying
25/07/2010 01:38:12 PM
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My point on that topic was...
25/07/2010 01:50:19 PM
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I nor the author never said the word failure
25/07/2010 02:45:11 PM
- 155 Views
Okay, well, my points are there, if you ever want to react to them, feel free.
25/07/2010 04:54:21 PM
- 159 Views
Red/blue assumptions here are likely a mistake
25/07/2010 01:43:18 AM
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I'd be interested to see the reasons why you assert that "most people don't really like gays."
25/07/2010 01:56:30 AM
- 174 Views
You'd only ever get anecdotal proof
25/07/2010 02:15:54 AM
- 172 Views
how many people in your generation use "that is so gay" as a compliment?
26/07/2010 02:33:12 PM
- 178 Views
and article that uses "Red families and Blues Families" as it basis really can't be taken seriously
26/07/2010 02:59:20 PM
- 160 Views
I'm not disagreeing with your whole post, but two important points...
26/07/2010 04:43:55 PM
- 165 Views
Well, Cahn and Carbone aren't experts in the field either
26/07/2010 05:25:50 PM
- 160 Views

while the specific demographics discussed are certainly worth questioning...
26/07/2010 05:48:30 PM
- 177 Views
the study he builds his argument around is not worth questioning
26/07/2010 06:43:21 PM
- 151 Views
I agree with you mostly
26/07/2010 08:28:04 PM
- 158 Views
My personal definition is a man and woman wanting to raise children or at least build a life togeth
26/07/2010 10:22:35 PM
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