Unless... what if we offered something equally perfect and infinitely valuable to make it even?
Joel Send a noteboard - 17/09/2010 05:04:39 AM
Of course, WE don't really HAVE anything; everything we've got is just on loan from that same perfection we reject. So pretty much the only way we're going to get out of this one is if we're GIVEN infinitely valuable precious weregild, too. Which we pretty much are, but the evil itself must still be expunged, hence the big deal with Communion, because in being baptized into Christs death Communion is supposed to nail human sins to the cross just as it imparts Christs divine Grace to observers. It's probably THE most superstitious thing left in the Church, because it's not far removed from ancient traditions of consuming ancestors or foes to gain part of their spirit. The rite itself, however, is, has to be largely symbolic (and narrow minded heterodoct that I am I'd have been burned at the stake for saying this 500 years ago) because it's bread and wine prepared recently SYMBOLIZING Christs body and blood in the tradition He laid out at the Last Supper. That rite and knowing submission to it can still form the basis for a very real spiritual communion with Christ as He went to the Passion, a night and day of torment, crucifixion, death and resurrection.
That's not really about Hell so much as how you get there though, and, far more importantly, how you don't: Since the sin is infinitely great, and since God isn't just good but PERFECT, the sin cannot be allowed to BE, even if God were a machine. And "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" so we're screwed. Unless you can honestly say that statement doesn't apply to you, any version of God is going to have a problem with you.
He's got another problem though: Divine mercy. That's absolute, too, after all; it's a divine attribute, so it has to be. He loves all creation, that's why He made it, and earnestly strives with all His omnipotence for its happiness and well being. Of course, there's this evil thing that keeps getting in the way, but He can't just ANNIHILATE all those parts of His beloved creation that went bad on Him, right? I mean, "God is love" or there would BE no creation to feel and share His love, and if His love is as absolute as everything else, He must love creation as much as Himself.
Which is the logic that resolves the absolute love/justice dilemma: God, despite being perfect, comes as one of us in the flesh, takes on the price of our sins and carries it to its fullest at the cross while remaining perfect; His death is SOLELY for our sins, and only enough BECAUSE He is perfect and divine. Of course, then you get into the Trinity and "first Adam" vs. "second Adam" and it gets complicated, but that's the core of it.
That's not really about Hell so much as how you get there though, and, far more importantly, how you don't: Since the sin is infinitely great, and since God isn't just good but PERFECT, the sin cannot be allowed to BE, even if God were a machine. And "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" so we're screwed. Unless you can honestly say that statement doesn't apply to you, any version of God is going to have a problem with you.
He's got another problem though: Divine mercy. That's absolute, too, after all; it's a divine attribute, so it has to be. He loves all creation, that's why He made it, and earnestly strives with all His omnipotence for its happiness and well being. Of course, there's this evil thing that keeps getting in the way, but He can't just ANNIHILATE all those parts of His beloved creation that went bad on Him, right? I mean, "God is love" or there would BE no creation to feel and share His love, and if His love is as absolute as everything else, He must love creation as much as Himself.
Which is the logic that resolves the absolute love/justice dilemma: God, despite being perfect, comes as one of us in the flesh, takes on the price of our sins and carries it to its fullest at the cross while remaining perfect; His death is SOLELY for our sins, and only enough BECAUSE He is perfect and divine. Of course, then you get into the Trinity and "first Adam" vs. "second Adam" and it gets complicated, but that's the core of it.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
So how do you define "Hell"? (*Edit with extra question.)
01/09/2010 09:27:29 PM
- 1450 Views
small townish.
01/09/2010 09:33:18 PM
- 942 Views
endless loops of reality TV, soft rock, and New Age music *NM*
01/09/2010 09:35:20 PM
- 460 Views
Hell, per Phelix...
01/09/2010 09:44:32 PM
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Outliving the people you love. *NM*
01/09/2010 10:03:28 PM
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France.
01/09/2010 10:03:55 PM
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That doesn't make sense
01/09/2010 10:17:36 PM
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I realise German food isn't great
01/09/2010 10:25:31 PM
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Mmmmmmmm...
01/09/2010 10:50:41 PM
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You people need a letter limit.
02/09/2010 02:35:10 AM
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I believe in Germany there is a word for that
02/09/2010 10:32:13 AM
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But with more ch's and some cute little dots over the vowels. *NM*
02/09/2010 09:13:36 PM
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.... for that?? *NM*
02/09/2010 05:43:48 PM
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We should reconsider if the retirement home we picked for her in Wales is the right place *NM*
03/09/2010 08:38:13 AM
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You are Welsh now?
03/09/2010 11:41:05 AM
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And British weather? *NM*
01/09/2010 10:18:31 PM
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Our weather is a talking point
*NM*
01/09/2010 10:25:52 PM
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Yes, but when it's the French doing the talking... you see where I'm going with this? *NM*
01/09/2010 10:27:50 PM
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Which is why the English are considered boring.
*NM*
01/09/2010 11:18:41 PM
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It isn't our fault people haven't experienced our weather
*NM*
01/09/2010 11:22:56 PM
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Does it ever actually change? I thought it was foggy, overcast and damp constantly.
01/09/2010 11:27:36 PM
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People in Seattle have. *NM*
02/09/2010 12:02:14 AM
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I actually envision it...
01/09/2010 10:22:16 PM
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jaw-pain is that bad then?
01/09/2010 10:32:18 PM
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you see how much Tashy has changed....
01/09/2010 10:54:59 PM
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So does anybody here actually envision it as burning in fire and brimstone? I have been told that
01/09/2010 11:25:15 PM
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no
02/09/2010 03:39:38 AM
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If you want to know what death is like you experience it every night when you sleep.
06/09/2010 04:37:41 AM
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I don't believe in Hell. At least not an eternal one.
01/09/2010 11:55:02 PM
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One of my favorite jokes is along those lines...
02/09/2010 12:37:18 AM
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Hee! Reminds me of Bishop Gene Robinson.
02/09/2010 12:45:24 AM
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I love most of the words that come from Gene's mouth.
02/09/2010 12:48:24 AM
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I got to have dinner with him. Sat at his table! He's so funny.
02/09/2010 01:00:23 AM
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A full wotmania chat with no ignore, no logout button and none of your friends present. *NM*
02/09/2010 12:04:18 AM
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A bar with limitless free whiskey where one is unable to become drunk.
02/09/2010 12:28:17 AM
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That's a great question, but I don't really think anything about it.
02/09/2010 02:39:35 AM
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I don't know but if they have 3G I will NB you a description when I get there *NM*
02/09/2010 03:40:04 AM
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If there is such a thing
02/09/2010 04:39:26 AM
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No kidding.
02/09/2010 04:49:38 AM
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I agree
02/09/2010 05:03:32 AM
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hmmm. although all that assumes a humanity of your soul in heaven.
02/09/2010 05:14:33 AM
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See - that's one of those personal things
02/09/2010 02:55:34 PM
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*shrug* it doesn't mean you aren't you.
02/09/2010 03:26:56 PM
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I liked Sartre's take on it. *NM*
02/09/2010 02:57:38 PM
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What is that? "Hell is other people at breakfast"? *NM*
02/09/2010 07:11:59 PM
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I'm not sure where the "at breakfast" comes from
02/09/2010 07:39:26 PM
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It has just been added on since then because it is so true and funny.
03/09/2010 05:16:43 AM
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Not simple, but I'll keep it very short
02/09/2010 03:42:29 PM
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so everyone goes to hell? *NM*
02/09/2010 04:33:05 PM
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That seems to be the conclusion if one agrees with my premises and line of thought, yes. *NM*
02/09/2010 04:43:34 PM
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hmm.
02/09/2010 05:23:23 PM
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That is what it should so...
02/09/2010 05:26:04 PM
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Unless... what if we offered something equally perfect and infinitely valuable to make it even?
17/09/2010 05:04:39 AM
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Eternal separation from the Creator. God'll give some what they wanted, but they won't like it. *NM*
03/09/2010 05:53:57 PM
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As far as Hell itself, this.
17/09/2010 05:08:02 AM
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Your God sounds like a sadist.
17/09/2010 05:12:17 AM
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There's one HUGE string attached:
17/09/2010 05:29:24 AM
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I have videoclips to answer that question.
27/09/2010 05:02:17 PM
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You have reminded me why I need to see that film again
27/09/2010 05:55:13 PM
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You could use at least one of the URLs in our link option, ya know?
28/09/2010 04:16:07 PM
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