Active Users:416 Time:04/07/2025 11:20:17 PM
I do see your point, but it often takes a shock for people to question reflexive views. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/07/2011 10:53:07 PM
Nothing's happened yet, the deadline is still a couple of weeks away. The Republicans are being incredibly stubborn about this. Hopefully they will come to some agreement. And sure what they are doing might be spinelessly selfish or cruelly selfish, but you don't have to use those words. As they say on the internet, "thems fighting words!". You just get people's backs up and then they wouldn't even listen to what you say because they have already decided to oppose whatever you say.

Frankly, I don't expect any Republican who still thinks Obama's the problem and their leaders are doing nothing wrong to change their minds; striving to realize that expectation is how Obama wound up with "universal" healthcare that's WORSE than nothing. Thankfully, he seems to have realized that, too, but remains too willing to delegate important policy negotiations to people Congressional Republicans can dismiss, so that when the President finally steps in and applies the leverage of his office his adversaries have already committed to refusing any offer he makes.

If, by your use of "right" below, you mean "valid" rather than "meritorious" then, no; a valid argument is just that, irrespective of the rhetoric in which it's couched. It can be couched in rhetoric, but that's not inherently bad either if the underlying point it illustrates or emphasizes is valid. Rhetoric has its very legitimate place, particulary in politics. It's only a problem when allowed to SUBSTITUTE for a legitimate argument rather than simply conveying it. To take a self serving example, Obama and Biden have offered numerous concessions to Republican "negotiators", who've offered none. Saying they're obstinate is rhetoric to emphasize a valid argument amply proven by all the evidence; when Michael Medved says Obama is being intractable that's ONLY rhetoric, because the argument it serves is invalidated by the facts.

Republican negotiators on this issue can be divided into two camps:

1) Those who agree in principle with the Presidents offer of massive spending cuts in exchange for smaller but still substantial tax increases, but feel obligated to refuse in practice because their colleagues and/or constituents strongly object.

2) The colleagues forcing the first group to refuse all deals even though everyone informed on the issue knows and says it will bankrupt the government, make the dollar worthless, end Social Security, Medicare, school lunches and every other government program, and instantly make American businesses toxic to the rest of the world.

Lately, a third group, we'll call it "the McConnell Group" has emerged: Republicans who realize their colleagues and constituents refusal to make ANY concessions OR accept less than their full demands makes any "compromise" impossible by definition. They realize raising the debt ceiling will alienate their base, and forcing a federal default will alienate the whole public; re-election will be impossible either way. Therefore they wish to surrender Congress' Constitutional spending authority to the President so we simply extend the debt ceiling without spending cuts OR tax increases, the economy explodes anyway and they can say it's entirely Obamas fault. They're ashamed of the risks their partisan brinksmanship poses to the nation; they should be. Unfortunately they're only ashamed enough to shield themselves from justified blame, not end their threats to America.

The first and last positions are cowardly and the second is ignorant and/or foolish; those are, like the analyses of each perspective, irrefutable facts. That I've tried to state them convincingly makes them no less valid; I can't imagine anyone trying to make an UNCONVINCING argument for documented facts or the conclusions they draw from them (if you want an example of good arguments in desperate need of equally good rhetoric, review the campaigns of most Democratic Presidential nominees between Truman and Clinton). Their behavior is dishonorable, particularly given the magnitude of the crisis, and I would be dishonorable to say it was any less than that. If they dislike the accurate description of that behavior, they would do well to consider whether the description or the behavior is at fault. Faulting the commentary is like accusing the coroner of murder.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Debt Ceiling Debacle: Are Republican Leaders Spinelessly Selfish, or Cluelessly Selfish? - 14/07/2011 04:57:30 PM 909 Views
funny how people only believe polls that say what they want to hear - 14/07/2011 06:08:21 PM 451 Views
That kind of headline doesn't really help, you know? - 14/07/2011 06:33:43 PM 548 Views
I second this. Definitely need less antagonism *NM* - 14/07/2011 07:36:54 PM 195 Views
"I have no idea what we're talking about, but my opinion is important anyway!" - 14/07/2011 09:03:10 PM 556 Views
just because you believe the silly rhetoric doens't mean it isn't rhetoric *NM* - 14/07/2011 09:27:08 PM 168 Views
Rhetoric can be right or wrong, but it's still rhetoric. *NM* - 14/07/2011 09:56:32 PM 279 Views
I can't think of anything else to call it. - 14/07/2011 09:17:42 PM 592 Views
I just think that you could have said all that in a much more less antagonistic way. - 14/07/2011 10:16:49 PM 567 Views
I do see your point, but it often takes a shock for people to question reflexive views. - 14/07/2011 10:53:07 PM 540 Views
there's a difference between shock and antagonism - 14/07/2011 11:43:20 PM 438 Views
Fair enough. - 15/07/2011 12:27:44 AM 609 Views
it is selfish to demand tax increases to allow needed spending reductions *NM* - 15/07/2011 02:48:11 PM 319 Views
It's shamefully selfish to demand others sacrifice their existence for your luxury. - 15/07/2011 04:14:04 PM 425 Views
that woulkd be shameful thank god it isnothing but rhetoric *NM* - 15/07/2011 07:17:44 PM 200 Views
It's the simple sad truth. - 15/07/2011 09:36:34 PM 360 Views
so defalting for tax increases is OK? - 18/07/2011 04:28:34 PM 433 Views
No, tax increases to PREVENT a default is OK. - 18/07/2011 06:36:15 PM 525 Views
And you haven't even gotten into the cries for a "balanced budget amendment." - 14/07/2011 09:17:04 PM 405 Views
Did the Mitch McConnel thing remind anyone else of Jar Jar Binks appearing before the Senate... - 15/07/2011 07:38:52 AM 512 Views
It probably would have if I didn't do everything I could to avoid thinking of Jar Jar Binks *NM* - 15/07/2011 11:20:09 AM 212 Views
Well said. *NM* - 15/07/2011 01:46:46 PM 201 Views
Pretty much everyone in the Tea Party, I think. - 15/07/2011 04:45:08 PM 451 Views
obama needs to learn when to STFU sometimes - 15/07/2011 08:14:29 PM 485 Views
And make policy. - 15/07/2011 10:08:50 PM 598 Views
Clueless only in the sense that they aren't heeding the signals of their owners. - 17/07/2011 06:46:42 AM 659 Views
Coaches have to do things fans dislike to win games, or get fired anyway when they lose. - 17/07/2011 04:11:38 PM 655 Views
Here's to hoping I'm wrong. - 18/07/2011 08:46:13 AM 597 Views
I was all set to argue, then I read the other new responses. - 18/07/2011 06:36:05 PM 597 Views

Reply to Message