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Re: A real possibility. Isaac Send a noteboard - 09/06/2012 06:33:54 PM
Guess the Mayans were right, and all you people worried about Apophis or some other asteroid were missing the galaxy-sized picture. :P

Well a rogue galactic core ejected and spinning around the intergalactic void would be very hard to spot it would be a different story if it entered a galaxy. Out in the intergalactic void there's way more space and way less things for it to perturb so you could see it, inside a a star dense region though it would be perturb stuff like a Rhino charging through a grove of saplings. You'd have to be looking to see it to be sure but they're going to be bending orbits in a rather noteworthy fashion, to give a somewhat oversimplified example, something in the million SM region would be exerting a force on objects similar to what the sun exerts on Jupiter out at about a trillion miles.

That is logical, though since, apparently, no one was looking for stuff like this, an orphaned black hole could be barreling down on us as it has throughout human history, with us oblivious to oncoming oblivion. Again, it is a bit like the risk of asteroid collision: An unpredictable but deterministic disaster. That astronomers do not constantly spot heavily distorted regions with no visible cause suggests events like this one are relatively uncommon. That said, the logic cuts both ways, and some or even most things we take for granted as norms might actually be exceptionally rare and hard to detect phenomena that just happen occur very near us.


Can't do science assuming we experience an abnormal number of improbabilities in anything we do. Improbabilities can happen, but as a net average the sum of various weird shit must be normal or we can't do science. Sole exception being where those improbabilities, or a large number of them, cause our ability to do science, which is to say, why there is complex life on Earth. If you go into the lab, flip five coins 5 times each and get heads each time, you have to assume the coins are biased even though the odds of that are about 1 in 30 million of naturally occurring, if you don't you can never get any science done. Most logical answer to the abnormal amount of queer crap in our neighborhood is simply that we observe our neighborhood in greater detail, even though Fermi Paradox implies pretty strongly that some of that weird stuff is probably weird stuff that's responsible in part for our being here to observe it.

I honestly do not expect to ever see any terrestrial black hole threat, simply because of the magnitude of astronomical distance and time scales. I just could not resist the imagery conjured by the spectacle of two galaxies ripping out each others singularity hearts and sending them marauding through the universe. I suppose that means I perpetuated the problem with sensationalizing science (sorry. :<img class=' />)


Well really you didn't sensationalize it, the media does, scientific phenomena that make mention of either 'black hole' or 'event horizon' are horrifyingly more likely to be mentioned, and journalists are also horribly lazy, not that they have much choice, they can't be experts in everything an editors run interesting stories and sack journalists who don't produce them, 'publish or perish' and all. This why I bitch about that Disney Black Hole movie. [which reviewing in preview mode I find disturbingly ironic you bring up later, presumably I've bitched about it before]

That "recoil" is interesting though, and I would like to know more about it. Did the black holes bounce off each other after crossing their event horizons (which my limited laymans knowledge of black holes says should be impossible)?

Nothing escapes a black holes event horizon with the possible exception of quantum effects right at the surface, Hawking Radiation, totally different effect then Merger Recoil which I'm afraid I can't explain beyond mumbling techno-speak at you. Somewhat oversimplified, when the merger takes place the new object ends up with but load of inertia from non-symmetric gravity wave emission. This probably expels a lot of black holes holes from the globular clusters they were birthed in. Don't over-mystify this though. Gravity, just like any other force, must expend energy to cause effects, it's the original thing we discovered that from back before we even knew about electricity. Take a light bulb and float it in an empty void and it doesn't move, just radiates light, break the symmetry and it will start moving. A flashlight with a really good battery will start moving off like a rocketship shoved along by it's light emissions if it's far from any gravity or friction to keep it from heading off, same as if it had a rocket motor. The only difference here, really, is that gravity is normally very symmetric, you can't really bounce it around off mirrors or shove it through a piston or rocket engine or whatever. Well, and this is a crude analogy, at the scales involved in a binary black hole merger this isn't the case anymore and it can shoot at gravity waves no symmetrically, giving it a net kick in one direction. Nothing escapes a black hole except for gravity, which obviously does, so it's a gravity drive basically, though I'm cringing to phrase it that way.

*shrugs* If antigravity is plausible gravitational drives are a logical consequence, and it is hard to conceive any kind of recoil not caused by repulsive force. Would balls bounce off the ground if electrons orbiting atoms in each were not both negatively charged? That is what perplexes me: As you note, gravity does not admit such bouncing, because it is exlusively attractive.


Well you need to think a little outside the macroscopic and intuitive scale when thinking about force interactions. A virtual particle acting as a force interchange shoots out of proton and hits an electron, somehow drawing it nearer, something you'll never achieve at our level of reality by throwing abjects at another object. The laws governing our level of things are essentially the byproducts of statistical events at the quantum level, the ball could pass through the floor rather than bounce, but a trillion coin flips would have to come up heads for that to happen, and actually a trillion is way, way low and of course it's not one in a trillion but 1 in 2 to the trillionth+ power. The powerful trio of forces have negative counterparts, the really weak one doesn't. Why? No clue, and you know my views on string theory and brane and all that. Hand me evidence or it's not science, hand me a theory which even if true could never be proved and it's just math, brilliant math, quite possibly true math, but still just math and speculation, no different from solipsism. The fact is gravity is a very weak force with no known repulsive force and both real scientists and cranks have spent a lot of time vigorously seeking it and come up with squat. Thus far, anyway. Personally I've never understood the point of even creating a theory which couldn't be proved except as a temporary mental lynch pin for one's sanity, better to shelve the sucker and try again later when you know more. Currently there is no evidence supporting explaining why Gravity is weak and only attractive, it is possible it is not weak or does have a repulsive component, there is no evidence to support that currently.

What you say makes it sound like Merger Recoil is a misnomer, that singularities do not truly "bounce" off each other any more than they truly "emit" Hawking radiation: They extend gravitational waves, whose direction and intensity fluctuate wildly as they approach, altering their attraction to/of more distant matter. They do not (if I understood you correctly) kick off each other, but matter farther out in (and, theoretically, beyond) their galaxies; that is simply enabled by the singularities proximity affecting its mechanism. Unsurpisingly, that is more plausible than antigravity. :P


Hawking radiation conceptually is straight forward. Assuming virtual particles exist, particles pop up from the Quantum void in pairs non-stop and then disappear, especially near event horizons. If this happens at the very edge of an event horizon, one on each side of it, physics demands the one inside not leave. If the other is outside, then it may in some cases not re-enter, if it is a photon or neutrino it basically would have a 50/50 chance of having momentum that carried it away from the black hole and is moving at light speed just beyond the point where that is sufficient to not fall in. That particles energy is deducted from the total energy of the black hole, causing a mass reduction, same as when photons are emitted by stars or you and I. Totally different animal then Merger Recoil, as mentioned.

Also, unless I'm wrong, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that the 'merger' part their implies an incomplete process. Black holes A and B attempting to merge and make C fail and shoot away. The two black holes do NOT shoot away from each other. Now, there is a problem - a different problem - in getting black holes close together, known as the 'Final Parsec Problem' but that's a whole different issue and there are proposed solutions that handle it, regardless it's a different problem.

I thought of Hawking Radiation when posting, btw, but unless I badly and fundamentally misunderstand it, even that is not something escaping, but rather entering, an event horizon, preventing recombination with its counterpart. When we get right down to it, and remembering that gravity has an infinite, though weak, range, it is difficult to see galaxies themselves as anything but black holes with expansive accretion disks. Why does the sun not fall into the Milky Ways black hole core? Because it has considerable inertia also, but entropy is imperceptibly yet inexorably wearing on that gyroscope as it does every other, and our sun has no more chance of escaping its black hole than Maximillian did. In a very real sense, Sol does not enter the Milky Ways central singularity because it never left.


Mentioning that damn abomination of a Disney movie never is calculated to improve my mood. :P

The reason everything doesn't just tip into a black hole is because unless you're very close to one it behaves just like anything else of parallel mass, and an accretion disc is something fairly specific, the term isn't meant to apply to solar systems like ours. Just because the forces involved remain the same doesn't mean a solar system and an accretion disc are the same, or a galactic disc, anymore than an asteroid and a super-massive star are the same. Sol is NOT inside the Milk Way's singularity because a singularity is a point like object (or very nearly) nor it's Event Horizon because that has a specific location. It is inside the Core's gravitational influence and vice-versa, but then pretty much everything we can see is... not necessarily everything though. As I take pains to remind people, the Observable Universe is a very large object centered around the Earth which is constantly expanding, that expansion is not the same as Hubble Expansion and red shift, nor is the Observable Universe the same as the Universe thought they obviously get used synonymously a lot. Two different expansions, one caused by 'something???' maybe Dark Energy, and the other caused by the simple passage of time, we can see further because stuff further away can report in. It is inside our light cone. Now, depending on context gravity travels at the speed of light, and... insert stuff about General Relativity, go look up 'Speed of Gravity'

Or did the other forces acting on them cause the recoil before that, even though they all have much shorter ranges than gravitys infinite (albeit weaker) one? What, in my ignorance, do I now know, and can others with more knowledge answer that question? For now, I am more inclined than ever to believe "antigravity" is "the fundamental force underlying every non-gravitational one."

Well, not be a dick Joel but after expressing your ignorance of my field telling me you now have greater conviction in anti-gravity seems a bit excessive and weird. You might as well just have said, "I don't know anything about chemistry, but now that I've seen this endothermic chemical reaction I no longer believe in entropy"

My ignorance is not complete, merely non-professional. A little knowledge may be a dangerous thing, but does not equal NONE. Perhaps I oversimplified my suspicions a bit though; all I meant was that


A little knowledge of Chemistry and physics is needed to even make the mistake of seeing an endothermic reaction as a violation of thermodynamics too. Gravitic propulsion doesn't require anti-gravity, just non-symmetric GW emission, same as a flashlight rocketing along butt-end first through space doesn't require 'anti-light'.

1) The difficulty of unifying gravity with the other fundamental forces, even to the limited degree of reconciling with quantum mechanics,


I'm not a huge fan of Unified Forces, it may well be that GUF is the case but I think people pursue it with maniacal obsessiveness. Just because the other three, which are much stronger, are related, doesn't mean the fourth and far weaker one with totally different characteristics is. I wouldn't call it a windmill or white whale but for some people one of those two definitely applies.

2) the extent to which the others have been unified and

3) gravitys lack of any polarity


It's apparent lack of observable polarity. I add the distinction to emphasize that 'observable' is the important constraining factor here more than whether it is or is not real.

are all highly suggestive of it opposing that force (if any) underlying and unifying all others. I concede a lot of that is my philosophical bias toward the dialectic as "fundamental," but many things would make much more sense if it were true (e.g. a universal singularity "banging" when gravitational attraction was maximal.)


Joel, my irritation here isn't out of you being curious about astrophysics, or the non-complete nature of that science. My irritation is your patent refusal to go beyond the amateur level of this while insisting on challenging those of us who have. Common enough, like most physicists I'm pretty smug about how unlike most fields we don't whip out the 'because I said so' expertise argument very much, but sometimes the 'because I said so' applies. It's the reason you don't see me contradicting Celia about veterinary medicine, she hardly knows it all and I'm hardly ignorant of it, but she's knows way more than I do about it and if she says 'No, definitely not' about a solution to something weird I am going to accept that at 99% likely to be the case but more importantly I am going to accept that I am way less than 1% likely to find the answer if it isn't unless I spend several years studying the field. Yes, I am generally happy to answer questions about this stuff, and yes, I hate when others in my field, some on this site, take the obnoxious attitude toward explanation, but there is a line where I do need to stop you and say 'No, Definitely not, that solution simply isn't a logical extraction or line of pursuit' at which point you either need to abandon it or sit down and get your own degree in the field to prove me wrong. This isn't a movie or a book, people do not 'accidentally' stumble across answers in fields they aren't experts in.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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I think you're drawing some bad conclusions off this - 08/06/2012 04:57:03 AM 467 Views
A real possibility. - 09/06/2012 01:30:49 AM 406 Views
Re: A real possibility. - 09/06/2012 06:33:54 PM 530 Views
<3 - 10/06/2012 12:46:36 AM 404 Views
I genuinely forgot your antipathy to the Disney film, sorry. - 11/06/2012 04:36:42 AM 434 Views
I trimmed some, I need to know what you just said to reply to it. - 11/06/2012 08:20:35 AM 549 Views
Fair enough; I just do not want to make that decision for you. - 29/06/2012 04:02:32 AM 556 Views
No, seriously, it's totally okay - 29/06/2012 12:21:40 PM 549 Views
Re: I think you're drawing some bad conclusions off this - 09/06/2012 04:43:50 PM 384 Views
Ah, but that has a simple answer - 09/06/2012 04:51:12 PM 316 Views
Contract with me and become a Puella Magi /^_^\ *NM* - 09/06/2012 07:09:44 PM 235 Views
Chewt abides. - 30/06/2012 08:59:14 PM 415 Views
Hey, necroing old threads is Very Very WRONG! - 30/06/2012 09:37:12 PM 361 Views
Not if you keep it brief. *NM* - 01/07/2012 02:48:31 AM 143 Views
Duly noted. - 01/07/2012 04:27:03 AM 324 Views

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