Active Users:1141 Time:20/01/2026 12:38:00 PM
Re: If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting. Dark Knight Send a noteboard - 13/09/2012 10:14:12 PM
The goaltender comparison is not a good one. A goaltender can almost win a game by himself, given just one goal by his teammates. An apt comparison would be to a baseball pitcher, who also controls the game and just needs one run. A quarterback, however, needs a whole team to win. They throw the ball, that's all. They need receivers to catch it and to know the proper routes to run. They need an offensive line to block for them so they have time to throw it. They need the defense to hold the other team to fewer points. Really, the only way to judge QBs is by numbers, because team success has too many variables.

If teammates affect a quarterback's stats so much, why does a stat comparison matter? Maybe the guy with lesser stats just had teammates who didn't catch the ball as well, which would affect most of the stats you listed, or defenses that gave up too many touchdowns, which would affect the win-loss stats. Or do the stats take into account how well the receivers catch the ball? Do they take into account how much pressure the quarterback was under when he made the throw (ie. how well the offensive line did)? I don't know football stats well enough to automatically say they don't, but I suspect they don't. And if they don't, how can you make an individual comparison based on stats that only partly depend on the individual?


I despise win/loss records for QBs, like they were baseball pitchers or something. So that is not a valid stat comparsion, you're right. To a large extent, receivers don't drop so many balls that it would drastically throw off a QB's numbers. It can, however, be argued that inferior receivers don't run proper routes, thus negatively affecting the QB's numbers. With that being said, a QB's numbers would eventually reflect their talent. A great QB, like Peyton Manning, can make medicore receivers look good, thereby improving his numbers despite the modest talents of his receivers. It's because of how well he directs the receivers and how well he throws the ball. A bad QB will throw the ball all over the place, forcing the receiver to make more difficult catches.

Just to add, a hockey goaltender's stats do to some extent depend on the team as well, but not to the extent you listed for a quarterback. Sure, save percentage is a good indicator because it tells you what percentage of shots are stopped regardless of how many shots come at him, but a poor defense will allow more quality shots against. More odd-man rushes, more breakaways. An undisciplined team will take more penalties and allow more powerplay shots against their goaltender, which are harder to stop through screens. An inexperienced defense might cause more inadvertant tips, or might be less able to clear screening forwards out of the crease area, all of which make shots harder to stop. Better goaltenders tend to rise above the crop and compensate to some degree, but a goalie's win-loss record, his save percentage, and his goals-against-average aren't entirely based on his own performance. So if you want to debate, for example, Martin Brodeur versus Dominik Hasek, it's not as simple as comparing their stats.


True, but there is still some level of control with the goaltender's ability. A hall-of-fame talent goaltender can greatly make up for the deficiencies of his teammates, while a good goaltender can get into the hall of fame because of a stellar defense. Likewise, a good pitcher in baseball might be bailed out by stellar defense, whereas a great pitcher with a poor defense would need to strikeout more batters or induce simple ground or pop outs.
Formerly Mat Bloody Cauthon on Wotmania, blessed be its name
Reply to message
Help me settle argument about NFL QBs - 13/09/2012 06:20:48 PM 845 Views
Ben Roethlisberger is better than Philip Rivers as of now, regardless of stats. - 13/09/2012 07:06:34 PM 607 Views
Is that who you think these QBs are? *NM* - 13/09/2012 07:23:20 PM 326 Views
So if they traded QBs they would switch places in ranking? - 13/09/2012 07:37:26 PM 698 Views
Is this the third post about that same argument? - 13/09/2012 08:12:03 PM 710 Views
I'm sorry, is this not a free country? - 13/09/2012 08:26:21 PM 636 Views
Right, well. - 13/09/2012 08:43:02 PM 766 Views
Re: Right, well. - 13/09/2012 08:48:27 PM 790 Views
If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting. - 13/09/2012 09:17:50 PM 744 Views
Re: If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting. - 13/09/2012 09:28:04 PM 775 Views
Re: If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting. - 13/09/2012 09:53:21 PM 703 Views
Re: If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting. - 13/09/2012 10:14:12 PM 674 Views
Sorry, the FG attempt was not blocked: Romo bobbled the snap, then ran for 0 yards. - 14/09/2012 01:18:08 PM 816 Views
Wrong game - 14/09/2012 01:31:23 PM 654 Views
But a Manning by any other name doesn't throw as many picks - 13/09/2012 09:48:08 PM 635 Views
Re: But a Manning by any other name doesn't throw as many picks - 13/09/2012 10:01:30 PM 677 Views
post something else and these three post won't seem as important - 13/09/2012 08:36:29 PM 658 Views
For once I agree with you completely. - 14/09/2012 01:11:20 PM 739 Views
Me too. You filty commie bastards. - 14/09/2012 11:28:37 PM 885 Views
According to Wikipedia, you're talking about... - 13/09/2012 09:05:26 PM 602 Views
Close - 13/09/2012 09:21:18 PM 795 Views
I told you, Wikipedia. - 13/09/2012 09:49:32 PM 822 Views
Same argument - Eli >> Romo due to leadership, big games, and championships. *NM* - 13/09/2012 10:31:12 PM 292 Views
So a game manager is a better QB than a skilled QB? - 14/09/2012 12:08:43 AM 620 Views
No, but a 2-time Super Bowl MVP that led two game-winning drives is better..... - 14/09/2012 01:06:18 AM 615 Views
No questions - 14/09/2012 01:12:09 AM 633 Views
Typical jealous Cowboys fan. - 14/09/2012 01:20:38 AM 669 Views
Typical Giants fan - 14/09/2012 01:30:54 AM 595 Views
Romo hasn't been the same since Jessica Simpson dumped him. - 14/09/2012 01:52:50 AM 706 Views
Ha! He dumped her - 14/09/2012 02:16:56 AM 724 Views
and Eli has been great since he threw a fit about who was drafting him *NM* - 14/09/2012 11:31:23 AM 295 Views
If Romo was playing on the Giants last year they would have done much better than 9-7 - 14/09/2012 11:30:36 AM 685 Views
And lost out before the NFC championship - 17/09/2012 11:01:59 AM 750 Views
A few tangential notes, mainly for tangential discussion. - 18/09/2012 01:00:12 AM 773 Views
Wait, you're way overstating something. - 17/09/2012 03:14:45 AM 686 Views
Another good point; well said. - 18/09/2012 01:16:11 AM 676 Views
Well you got that answer right even if you missed the question *NM* - 13/09/2012 09:36:53 PM 291 Views
Excellent. *NM* - 13/09/2012 09:50:43 PM 295 Views
Tony did just beat Eli. - 13/09/2012 11:28:00 PM 689 Views
Romo does well in the first game of the season, Eli does well in the last game of the season. - 13/09/2012 11:55:13 PM 690 Views
As a Lions fan, all I can say about the two is... - 14/09/2012 09:00:15 PM 611 Views
Ah, yes, Detroit; they were down 27-3 to Dallas at the end of the third quarter, right? - 14/09/2012 09:51:01 PM 745 Views
End of the half - 14/09/2012 10:13:24 PM 680 Views
Box score says it was 20-3 at the half. - 14/09/2012 10:22:40 PM 792 Views
Re: Box score says it was 20-3 at the half. - 14/09/2012 11:04:56 PM 697 Views
I believe you already know my answer. - 14/09/2012 12:58:16 PM 624 Views
Based only on those numbers, I say #1 is better. - 14/09/2012 02:21:17 PM 617 Views
Heh, I guess an Eagles fan is an unbiased, if not totally objective, arbiter. - 14/09/2012 09:35:47 PM 660 Views
How dare you, sir? - 15/09/2012 06:46:34 PM 692 Views
Not at all; I was AFFIRMING your objectivity. - 17/09/2012 05:43:02 PM 707 Views
There more than one rugby playing Kyubey? RUN!!! *NM* - 14/09/2012 06:30:50 PM 455 Views
QB #2. - 17/09/2012 03:08:18 AM 728 Views
You honed in on and explained the difference perfectly. - 17/09/2012 05:48:21 PM 725 Views
Repeating your bad argument doesnt make it valud *NM* - 18/09/2012 12:30:22 AM 277 Views
Clearly it is not solely MY argument. - 18/09/2012 12:34:45 AM 679 Views

Reply to Message