PR mainly seems to give the same choices more OUTCOMES (and meshes poorly with IRV.)
Joel Send a noteboard - 24/10/2012 12:38:29 PM
Bottom line is all the left parties with identical platforms need to rally around a single slate of candidates. They would be extremely lucky to break double digits in most elections even then, but as long as there are four or five people all pushing the same agenda it is hopeless, because each will spoil the others vote. They need a standard bearer and rallying point; in terms of organization, infrastructure and ballot access the Greens are the obvious choice. There is a reason why Roseanne Barr could not get their nomination, and I would say the thing to the Peace and Freedom Party that I say to Libertarians: If you are just going to nominate a larger parties castoff anyway, why not go all the way and join that party so you might actually WIN and achieve some policy goals?
again, it's not a habit of fringe left-wingers to agree to disagree on issues. i could point you to several conflicts i've personally witnessed where people accuse their compatriots of conspiring with "the enemy" on one single issue when they are in agreement on 99% of the rest of their beliefs.
I understand, but see NO disagreement between the Peace and Freedom, Justice and Green Parties—except who should implement their shared platform. Again, the only difference between them and the Grassroots Party is the latter places far too much importance on legalizing marijuana, but that is a difference in priorities, not policy. None of them can accomplish anything until/unless the public takes them seriously, which requires putting aside cults of personality and being professional, not petty (we have too much of the latter in government already.)
a PR system, and especially one tied to IRV, allows everyone to have a say in the types of policies that will be implemented.
No, PR lets party bosses dictate policy to the exclusion of the public; that is actually one of its strengths: NO risk unqualified neophytes like Sarah Palin, Allan West or Joe Walsh run the country. How much better off would we all be if Dem leaders had declared Hillary their 2008 nominee instead of an inexperienced populist who had not even finished one term in Congress?
That said PR is less, not more, democratic than regional representation, more oligarchically republican, in fact. Bosses and lackeys run government too much now; ceding them ALL control would make that worse, not better. Including career politicians from more parties would also only exacerbate rather than remedy the problem.
as i understand the way NZ does it, the parties publish a list of their top candidates who will be put into office if they win x% of the vote. if they win less than x%, the candidates fill the positions starting from the top and work their way down the list until they reach whatever threshold satisfies the proportionality. so, even though you are not directly voting on specific regional representation, you still have an idea of the people you *are* voting for.
I claim no perfect understanding of all proportional representation details, but firmly grasp the basics. Fundamentally, it is voting for a PARTY, not PERSON (even though voters in many countries nominally do the latter.) Senior party officials decide which of them assume the offices won. That makes the bad old days of party bosses in smoky back rooms deciding the presidential nomination look positively transparent: We choose the party, but it chooses our representatives.
Would that mean more choices than letting anyone on the ballot who amasses enough signatures? It might get the leader of the Green and Libertarian parties a House seat, but both would be stuck in the same position as Bernard Sanders: Caucus/vote with one of the two major parties or not at all. The only practical effect would be making Congressional majorities more difficult and transitory; examples like Joe Lieberman and Strom Thurmond suggest that would be no benefit.
Meanwhile, reconciliing IRV (which I much prefer) and PR is self-defeating. Votes for the least preferred candidates/parties can be redistributed to each voters second choice OR offices won in proportion to the share of votes earned. Doing both is contradictory.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 24/10/2012 at 12:48:44 PM
Between the ships, horses, bayonets, and lines about loving teachers...
23/10/2012 04:44:32 AM
- 1068 Views
He loves teachers, but only so long as we are seen and not heard.
23/10/2012 05:07:15 AM
- 528 Views
Which might those be?
23/10/2012 07:25:24 AM
- 527 Views
Romney did a good job, ultimately.
23/10/2012 05:13:00 AM
- 500 Views
I think it's safe to say foreign policy doesn't interest either of them all that much
23/10/2012 05:30:53 AM
- 491 Views
They really need to get together with the Greens.
23/10/2012 07:02:18 AM
- 553 Views
are you familiar with that scene in "life of brian"?
23/10/2012 05:25:54 PM
- 483 Views
I am indeed, but I do not see how proportional representation would help much.
23/10/2012 05:38:27 PM
- 444 Views
because PR coupled with IRV gives voters a lot more choice than D vs R
23/10/2012 09:47:27 PM
- 459 Views
PR mainly seems to give the same choices more OUTCOMES (and meshes poorly with IRV.)
24/10/2012 12:38:29 PM
- 501 Views
The instapolls declared Obama victor in #1 too, Romney won this one
23/10/2012 06:00:26 AM
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*blinks*
23/10/2012 06:08:00 AM
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With you on the first part, but most people conceded Obama had the edge on foreign policy.
23/10/2012 06:24:24 AM
- 511 Views
are you sure you weren't re-watching the first debate?
23/10/2012 06:08:36 PM
- 458 Views
No, defintely watching this one
24/10/2012 04:02:44 AM
- 542 Views
romney should be hanging in the wind with the way he campaigned
24/10/2012 06:28:40 AM
- 487 Views
So your rebuttal is to call for Romney's death? Nice *NM*
24/10/2012 06:57:19 AM
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yes, way to misconstrue what i said without actually responding to any of it
*NM*
24/10/2012 05:20:07 PM
- 246 Views

You said it, not me, but way to double down on it, very classy *NM*
25/10/2012 03:00:10 AM
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i see romney has taught you the ways of the douchebag asshole. you used to be better than that...
25/10/2012 05:42:38 AM
- 425 Views
In fairness to Isaac, the terminology used typically describes hanging a criminal
25/10/2012 06:55:43 AM
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i'm sure if it were not the end of the election cycle he would not have taken it that way
25/10/2012 05:52:25 PM
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I must agree with Isaac and Legolas; violent language like that is a (literal) trigger for nutjobs.
29/10/2012 07:00:53 PM
- 427 Views
I have agreed with the post mortems till now; no idea how anyone can score that a Romney win.
23/10/2012 06:01:22 AM
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My favorite gaffe of the night:
23/10/2012 06:07:19 AM
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Honestly, it was hard to miss: The Persian Gulf is named after Iran.
23/10/2012 06:28:25 AM
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I was wondering what Iran would see as weaker
23/10/2012 12:59:38 PM
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Hopefully America is wondering the same thing, but that presumes most of us can find Iran on a map.
23/10/2012 04:01:19 PM
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..and the folks poking fun at him hope we only look at the cropped map they provide. *NM*
23/10/2012 07:18:11 PM
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It was a poorly worded statement, the "sea" being referred to is the Med, but essentially correct.
23/10/2012 07:16:37 PM
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What is this, the 19th century? Why is the Med so important?
23/10/2012 10:20:11 PM
- 540 Views
Commercial, Iran doesn't have a navy worth mentioning.
24/10/2012 03:41:46 PM
- 529 Views
Okay, commercial, that narrows it down. How, exactly?
24/10/2012 06:02:01 PM
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Right family (Hussein of Jordan), wrong generation by a few hundered years.
25/10/2012 06:16:51 PM
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Hm. Curious who you mean, then.
25/10/2012 11:52:06 PM
- 534 Views
You are too hung up on a "port"
26/10/2012 03:13:59 PM
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That's what Romney and you said, isn't it? Access to the Mediterranean.
26/10/2012 11:30:55 PM
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Re: That's what Romney and you said, isn't it? Access to the Mediterranean.
29/10/2012 02:23:33 PM
- 552 Views
Commercial interests are the only relevant ones, but commerical shipping has the Suez.
25/10/2012 11:31:23 PM
- 460 Views
and one he seems to keep making - how many times do you give someone the benefit of the doubt?
23/10/2012 11:46:55 PM
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it is simply a standard descriptive line.
24/10/2012 03:54:49 PM
- 568 Views
What is?
25/10/2012 11:15:28 AM
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Not really my contradictions, Frankly I think most of the political enteties in the ME are nuts. *NM*
25/10/2012 06:23:51 PM
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I'm refering to the contradictions of your argument, not the region
25/10/2012 11:47:29 PM
- 536 Views
Irans route to the sea is "not being landlocked;" it must go through Iraq to reach Syria.
24/10/2012 05:45:41 PM
- 521 Views
It is not ships and military conquest through the Med, it is political and ideological/religious.
25/10/2012 09:57:18 PM
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Um, I am pretty sure that stuff travels by internet and radio, not by sea.
25/10/2012 11:27:17 PM
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It is sociological, political, and religous, it does not have to make logical sense. *NM*
29/10/2012 02:26:43 PM
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If Romney wants to be president, he should make sense, particularly when arguing a cause for war.
29/10/2012 06:46:06 PM
- 580 Views
Obama trounced him but he was always going to and by this point nobody cares anymore
23/10/2012 12:58:12 PM
- 448 Views
The election is a tossup. Could really go either way at this point. *NM*
23/10/2012 11:06:39 PM
- 238 Views
inexplicably a tossup. normally the proven liar (romney) would have no chance
23/10/2012 11:36:16 PM
- 491 Views
Pointing to one side of a political debate/campaign and yelling LIAR is the definition of hypocrisy. *NM*
25/10/2012 09:59:08 PM
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well then prove to us mitt romney is not a liar and i will retract my statements *NM*
25/10/2012 10:32:18 PM
- 239 Views