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His comment references the authors (NOT words) intent in both negative and affirmative. Joel Send a noteboard - 12/12/2012 06:45:02 PM
"I don't care about x, I care about x"? Was that supposed to be a joke?

No it is not a joke, it is grammar. What the PEOPLE intended when they wrote the document is not relevant, it is what the WORDS they actually wrote intend. This is really rather simple, it is basic contract law.

"I don’t care what their intent was. I care what it was that they intended." That LITERALLY says, "I don't care about x, I care about x." I know English grammar pretty well, but even that is needless here, because, again, Scalia negatively AND affirmatively referenced the same phrase: LOGICALLY, A=/=Not A.

Of course, it is not even THAT simple; a literally limited First Amendment would not protect your right to gush about Scalia online (since that is an electronic transmission, not speech or publishing,) and a literally unlimited Second Amendment WOULD ensure my absolute right to keep and bear ICBMs.

Publishing on the internet is still publishing, and YEAH, the second amendment does allow the individual to have military grade weapons, just good luck trying to afford an ICBM. If you don't like the 2nd amendment, get a majority of folks together and CHANGE it, not 9 guys with a lifetime appointment.

Publishing on the internet is still publishing, sure, but posting a comment on an online forum is no more "publishing" than is writing on the wall of a bathroom stall (I wish that analogy did not work as well as it does. :P) If posting something on online forums were the same as publishing it millions of people would not be pissing themselves because Facebook claims exclusive right to anything and everything ANYONE posts there.

As to the Second Amendment argument, sure, ICBMs are prohibitively expensive, but if you check I believe you will find weapons grade fissile material is VERY tightly restricted. ICBMs are also chock full o' classified technology. According to Wikipedia, the Peacekeeper has been decommissioned and lists for $70 million, but even if someone with that much cash convinced Boeing or Martin to sell them one they could expect a prompt visit (and almost certain arrest) by the NSA, FBI and probably half a dozen other federal agencies.

The amendment codifying the right to keep and bear arms does so in terms of a "well regulated militia," opening wide the door to regulation. It also does NOT explicitly codify an INDIVIDUALS right to arms; I would argue that is implied, but one could argue the opposite, and that is the point: SCALIAS argument leaves no room for the other one, nor for much of his job.

“They want society to do things their way now and forever, coast to coast.” That is Scalias argument FOR letting him define the Constitutions every penstroke in excruciating detail, now and forever; sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. He quickly gives a good example of why that would be so foolishly dangerous: “My constitution is a very flexible one. There’s nothing in it about abortion and since there isn’t, it’s up to the citizens.” Scalias Constitution grants women no Fourth Amendment right to security against the search needed to prove an illegal abortion, nor a Fifth Amendment right against thereby incriminating themselves.

The written Constitution is ALREADY coast to coast law. He is against 9 people arbitrarily changing it regardless of the feelings of the MILLIONS of people who will be governed by their ruling. Your abortion examples are beyond stupid. 4th and 5th amendment rights are universal. No search without consent or court order (probable cause) can be performed, and at that point there is no 5th argument. Police exercising a search warrant on your house is not a 5th amendment issue. Police conducting a sobriety test with legitimate probable cause is not a 5th amendment issue. Try again.

Using ones own body as evidence against them is self-incrimination in its most basic form; it is LITERALLY incrimination by oneself. Probable cause does not change that logically even if it has been held to do so legally (though, last I checked, sobriety tests can always be refused, with or without probable cause, though doing so at a traffic stop results in license forfeiture most places; driving understood to be a state licensed privilege, not a right.) Even were that not so, however, it is practically impossible to prove a woman had an abortion unless her body is examined, which would violate her right to security in her person and property (the elusive "right to privacy" conservative Constitution scholars inexplicably insist they cannot find.)

The Constitution is obviously national law, by definition, but just because it does not explicitly state a persons car is secure against unreasonable search or seizure, even though the Framers COULD not have understood "effects" to mean "automobile," does not mean it is OK for the FBI to search anyones car for any reason or none any time they want. The meanings of words change over time (though I am on record they should do so as rarely as practical, and only for good cause,) and thus the Constitution is every bit as much alive as the language in which it is written. If the Framers wanted a dead rather than living and evolving document they should have written in Latin (and most surely unerstood that quite well.)

That is not so shocking though; Scalias stated "understanding" of the Constitution is that "With the right structure, you will preserve freedom even without a bill of rights." The Constitutions authors disagreed: THAT IS WHY THEY ADDED THE BILL OF RIGHTS! That, and the fact the states all refused to ratify it until they did.

No, the actual authors of the Constitution agreed with him. Learn a little history before spouting off. The authors believed that because, the document states that all powers not EXPRESSLY granted to the federal government reside with the states and the people, the "Bill of Rights" was not needed, and silly. The argument was that if they wasted their time expressly stating several things that the Government could NOT do (when the Constitution already stated that they could ONLY do what they were specifically empowered to do and nothing else), then stupid people would later assume that those were the ONLY things that the government could not do. Guess what, they were right. The adding of the Bill of Rights was a political move to help insure its passage by the paranoid fringe. The basic attitude was "Sure, whatever, it does not matter what you put in the amendments, but if it makes you feel better go for it."

A majority of Framers were ultimately convinced an explicit Bill of Rights would be construed to protect ONLY specifically stated rights; that is the Ninths Amendments whole point. That also destroys Scalias argument the Constitution means no more nor less than what the Framers understood its specific language to mean, because THE FRAMERS clearly disagreed, else they would not have feared an explicit Bill of Rights would let government violate any and all unstated rights.

Yet that "paranoid fringe" you reference is also known as "the legislatures of 8/13 orginal states." Even the majority of the nine states who first ratified (and thus enacted) the Constitution did so only no the guaranteed condition of a bill of rights: The Constitution would not EXIST without the Bill of Rights, because a majority of states said outright they would reject it in that form. A majority may be radical, but never fringe; it defines the mainstream.

The Constitution is obviously not a blank check. It has specific words with specific meanings, but if all the latter were as unambigously cut and dried as Scalia makes them sound he would be out of a job. That they are not makes me WISH he were. Scalia is arguably the most activist justice on the SCOTUS; it is only debatable because, although Kagans tenure has just begun, she will likely be every bit as bad (just in the other direction.) Partisan activism does not become impartial jurisprudence nor sage wisdom just because one happens to share the activists partisanship. I wish Scalia no ill will, but only hope he soon retires and lets a more able justice take his place. His infamous skill at inverting the meaning of words is more visibly failing each day. He has become a caricature of his once intimidating self.

Ummm, they are cut and dried, crystal clear, and unambiguous. Except when someone with a political agenda wants to try and make it say something that it does not. His job (and, to an extent, the job of the entire judiciary) is to PRESERVE the Constitution and Prevent the Legislative and Executive branches from exceeding their constitutionally granted authority. His job is NOT to create a new Constitution.

Y'know, it is odd you style Scalias job as preventing Congress and the president from exceeding their constitutional authority, because the Constitution says NOT A WORD about the SCOTUS reviewing federal law. Under Scalias "the Constitution must be understood only explicitly, and its explicits words only as I say" logic, any law Congress duly passed and the president signs would be absolute. That moots Scalias whole argument (which, in his typical Through the Looking Glass fashion, is his ultimate aim: Invalidating judicial view, and thus his job.)

Indeed, even though James Madison was the Constitutions main author, and even though it means precisely what he said precisely as he understood it, the SCOTUS quickly concluded THE CONSTITUTIONS MAIN AUTHOR VIOLATED IT when he witheld Marburys judicial appointment. The only complexity was that the Constitution does not explicitly EMPOWER the SCOTUS to declare anything unconstitutional, but, as we all know, the SCOTUS ruled it has that power anyway. Twice over, in fact; it ruled Madison violated the Constitution he wrote, but further ruled the federal law letting Marbury seek remedy from the SCOTUS was ALSO unconstitutional because it increased SCOTUS authority beyond constitutional limits. John Marshall could out-Scalia Scalia on his best day, which was about 15 years ago. ;)

It suits Scalia to say the SCOTUS cannot rule gay marriage and abortion bans unconstitutional, but satisfying Antonin Scalia is not the standard for constitutional law (really.) The Constitution does not say a word about marijuana either, and two states legalized it this year: Is there any doubt how Scalia would rule in a CO or WA case challenging the federal marijuana ban? The Constitution actually DOES explicitly leave elections to the several states: When the FL Supreme Court accordingly ruled there should be statewide recount in 2000, did Antonin Scalia accept that ruling, which the Constitution explicitly makes absolute, or overturn it?

This is not about the Constitution, it is about Scalia yet again trying to exploit and invert it to somehow establish his parochial world view as federal law. If he wants to do that he should run for Congress or president and THEN hope he can fool the SCOTUS into believing his unconstitutional creations are constitutional.
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This message last edited by Joel on 12/12/2012 at 08:41:44 PM
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SCOTUS Justice Antonin Scalia is brilliant, just brilliant - - 11/12/2012 05:09:19 AM 936 Views
WTF does "I don’t care what their intent was. I care what it was that they intended" mean? - 11/12/2012 09:03:23 PM 506 Views
Yeah I read that twice to see if that was right *NM* - 11/12/2012 09:36:55 PM 246 Views
Part of me pities Scalias decline, because he could once nimbly and convincly argue black is white. - 12/12/2012 07:09:56 PM 471 Views
Re: your post. - 12/12/2012 07:18:18 PM 451 Views
You are quite right; I never noticed that until now. - 12/12/2012 07:29:08 PM 553 Views
Not quite - 12/12/2012 08:16:27 PM 564 Views
Poes Law. - 16/12/2012 01:42:55 PM 474 Views
More like disapeared in a puff of Florida's own law that they were trying to ignore. - 12/12/2012 08:13:13 PM 472 Views
actually..... - 12/12/2012 08:32:58 PM 555 Views
Re: actually..... - 12/12/2012 09:39:01 PM 454 Views
Your whole rant lacks any logic - 12/12/2012 03:46:34 PM 511 Views
+1 - logic is not his strong suit. *NM* - 12/12/2012 04:21:09 PM 199 Views
His comment references the authors (NOT words) intent in both negative and affirmative. - 12/12/2012 06:45:02 PM 472 Views
Rebuttal - 12/12/2012 07:58:41 PM 510 Views
Only nominally. - 16/12/2012 03:54:38 PM 470 Views
I was stumped by his phrasing as well - 12/12/2012 09:31:53 PM 367 Views
The SCotUS is no place for raging homophobes. - 13/12/2012 04:48:30 AM 605 Views
Sorry you don't like it, but what he said is true. - 13/12/2012 03:11:42 PM 531 Views
Lol. Homophobia is synonymous w/ homonegativism. It's not meant to convey a true phobia *NM* - 13/12/2012 03:28:01 PM 312 Views
So then what we need is a definition of homophobia? - 13/12/2012 09:56:15 PM 550 Views
Re: So then what we need is a definition of homophobia? - 13/12/2012 11:16:46 PM 496 Views
-phobe : Greek -phobos, adj. derivative of phóbos fear, panic - 13/12/2012 11:32:14 PM 506 Views
Do you have a similar problem with "xenophobia?" Because it's exactly the same thing. - 14/12/2012 01:30:24 AM 436 Views
xenophobia is the fear of the alien... WTF are you trying to say? - 14/12/2012 03:03:09 AM 499 Views
No. You are patently, objectively incorrect. - 14/12/2012 08:39:00 AM 430 Views
An aside. - 14/12/2012 01:21:32 PM 505 Views
Don't believe me, ask a Greek it is after all THEIR word. I gave you some extra capitals, happy now? *NM* - 14/12/2012 02:56:09 PM 312 Views
stop being obtuse - 14/12/2012 05:10:41 PM 478 Views
Hmmmm lets see, people misuse a word, perverting its meaning... - 14/12/2012 07:29:11 PM 453 Views
Double post. *NM* - 14/12/2012 10:14:50 PM 216 Views
that's glory for you! - 14/12/2012 10:44:30 PM 509 Views
So very conflicted, in so many ways.... - 16/12/2012 04:14:08 PM 612 Views

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