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Re: Obama did have a vision. He didn't really realize much of it, but still. Legolas Send a noteboard - 03/07/2016 05:36:24 PM

View original postAh yes, those rock-solid census numbers, based on self-reporting. That's the best way to count a group characterized by their commission of federal crimes - their willingness to identify themselves as such to the federal government!

Just to be clear: is that just a snide comment, or do you really figure that for some reason (which I hope you can explain to me) there are many Mexican illegal immigrants who are pretending to be from some other Central-American country?
View original postYour side of aisle had a good label for such people: useful idiots. Ours believe Mexico will pay for the wall, yours believe that if you like your plan, you can keep your plan.

Fair enough I suppose, except that I don't much identify with the Democratic side of the aisle, or with Obamacare. Or in fact with the whole concept of dividing everyone into just two camps.
View original postWhere do you get off challenging my assertion of my group's views or feelings?

It's just common sense that even on topics where you can more or less divide people into just two camps, like immigration, there is still a wide range of opinions on each side. Just look at all the research into how opinion poll results can differ significantly depending on the exact phrasing of any given question, or on which information is and isn't mentioned. So yeah, without pretending to be able to speak for those people in 'your group', I'm still very confident that the group is not monolithic, and that some of them would in fact change their mind if they see the cost of their desired solution is much higher than they figured.
View original postIt doesn't stop you from not only making assumptions but also trying to criticize a policy on the basis of those uninformed assumptions.

You'll note that the only policy I was criticizing was Donald Trump's, if you can call that a policy, and that you yourself admitted you didn't believe that all illegal immigrants would be expelled. If Donald Trump had a policy that was actually realistic, I would probably still criticize it, but less harshly and I would indeed need to do a lot more research first.
View original postSeriously though, illegal immigrants use our utilities and roads (ask a Californian how much fun rolling blackouts are), they enjoy our protections and freedoms, and they incur costs to the taxpayer when they are sick or injured (and come into this country without vaccinations) and occupy our emergency rooms. They take jobs that could allow American kids entry into the work force. Look at one small sphere of activity: Driving. Illegals drive without legitimate licenses, which means they did not receive proper training either, just a crash course on how to get by from their employer or Tio Pedro who has been illegally driving a truck for a few years. They are both less inclined to follow traffic regulations, being members of a group selected for refusal to obey our regulations, and more likely to be ignorant of the entirety of such laws. As such, they create hazards on the roads, and cause accidents, from which they almost always flee the scene. But they aren't insured anyway, and they don't bother to pay traffic tickets or show up in court, whether for their violations or small claims, so I suppose it doesn't really matter if they don't cooperate with the police taking a report...not that they need to flee, since even when the cops catch an illegal immigrant, driving an unregistered vehicle without insurance or a drivers' license, they can't do anything about it other than issue him tickets and trust that he'll show up for court. The punishment for such defiance is to have one's license suspended, but he doesn't have a real license to begin with! There might eventually be a warrant out for his arrest, but the first few times he's caught, the court that issued the warrant will order him released on his own recognizance if they lack the resources to transport him to jail, and the typically low bail set for such minor non-violent offenses isn't worth the bother. And when and if they do manage to pin him down and get him into court, and get a guilty verdict, his free ACLU or La Raza lawyer will appeal on the grounds that he was never expressly informed in his native dialect of Spanish of his right to contact the Mexican consulate, or some other linguistic shortcoming. Just redeploy the troops stationed on the border of another third world country like North Korea, and having them patrol would be cheap at any price.

Certainly there are costs, to society as a whole and most of all to low-educated Americans facing unfair competition in the job market. But there are also important benefits - not only to those profiting from illegal labour, but also for society as a whole which sees lower prices for all sorts of products and services as a result, plus all the sales taxes that the illegals do pay (it's not as if they would pay much income tax even if they were legal, with the incomes they make).

I'm sure that in some places, the costs still outweigh the benefits, and people really would be better off with the illegal immigrants gone. But even so, removing them all at once would be a painful adjustment, with employers unable to replace them all overnight and taking heavy hits in the short term, to say nothing of the law enforcement costs involved for such operations. Illegal immigration increases and decreases naturally over time - more modestly scaled targeted expulsions combined with better immigration control (not just border control - a huge share of illegal immigration is due to overstaying visas and would be completely unaffected) should solve the problem well enough. And while I don't have a strong opinion personally about the laws making everyone born on American soil a citizen, as long as they exist it is indeed difficult to implement policies separating parents from their children.


View original postHow would the removal of people who undercut American labor, take services without paying taxes, and impose costs through their unassimilated behavior ruin the economy? We did just fine once we started having to pay black people money, it couldn't hurt to start paying white and black people Mexican wages. As long as there is an unemployed English speaker in this country, there are too many illegals.

See above. And it's not so simple with unemployment - yes, illegal immigration depresses wages for low-educated Americans, but that doesn't mean if you kick them out you can just directly transfer their jobs to unemployed Americans (I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt on that 'English speaker' bit). Many of their jobs would simply disappear, with the employers going bankrupt or being forced to start doing the same work with far fewer, higher-paid employees - good news for the employees in question, not so much for the employer or for the broader population buying his products.
View original postEven if Trump is lying, he at least shows he gets what people want to hear. If he doesn't deliver on immigration reform, and loses reelection or a mid-term election (which some experts credibly assert is what happened with Bush; support for the "War on Terror" didn't fade much between 04 & 06, but his amnesty attempts had a definite effect on his performance ratings), it might send a message to other politicians. If we can get a guy elected, who distinguished himself through nothing other than calling a number of PC-protected spades spades, and promising to turn off the leaky faucet of immigration, it might convince the rest of the politicians that immigration is a winning issue, regardless of how many well-heeled donors want to import a slave class to pick their crops and watch their children.

Would you really want a populist, incompetent egoist like Trump to get into the White House, do little of use, and kill off the Republican majorities in Congress as a consequence?
View original postI'm sorry, what's the downside here?

Really not following you there. Voters who are already disappointed and will get even more disappointed if they elect Trump - how would that be a good thing?
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Re: Obama did have a vision. He didn't really realize much of it, but still. - 01/07/2016 12:56:36 AM 546 Views
Re: Obama did have a vision. He didn't really realize much of it, but still. - 03/07/2016 05:36:24 PM 478 Views
he can change his psostion during a single interview *NM* - 01/07/2016 04:13:38 PM 239 Views
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Thank you all for posting. Enlightening stuff. *NM* - 14/07/2016 07:26:29 AM 255 Views

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