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Oh, fun, metaphysics debate. Legolas Send a noteboard - 29/03/2017 07:59:59 PM

I won't comment on Braveheart as I don't remember enough of it.


View original postBut "Braveheart" is practically ideal, compared to "Titanic", where Rose dies and the scene fades to her reuniting with Jack and everyone else on the big staircase of Titanic. I actually asked when walking out of the theater "Do you go to Titanic when you die if you were good, or if you were bad?" People were crying, but I'm pretty sure my question had nothing to do with it. The music and the facial expressions of a pair of now Oscar-winning actors, suggest it is heaven, which conforms with Rose's assertion that in the brief time they had, they loved a lifetime's worth - No, dammit, that was the GOOD James Cameron romance movie - anyway, stuff to that effect. So, because she lived a good life, and because he died saving her (sort of), they get to spend eternity together, reliving their happiest moments, while the father of her children gets some peace and quiet. But it's not just them on the staircase, it's EVERYONE, including people who in real life would have been driven away from the rich people parts of the ship by truncheon-weilding stewards! Including the designer of the ship, who is the closest person standing by them when they meet up. Does he get to share in Titanic-heaven, because his design flaws sent a thousand people to an icy watery grave and eventually derailed the filmmaking career of one of the greatest directors of the late 20th century? Or is it hell for him, where he has to watch a couple of obnoxious kids making out for all eternity? What about all the other people for whom Titanic was a last torment to endure before reaching the promised land of opportunity, except they never got there! How bad were they, that their afterlives are all about reliving that tantalizing experience, which happens to be very close one of the oldest specified infernal punishments, of Sisyphis and the eponymous Tantalus? Or what does it say about Jack and Rose, that their heaven is basically having the only fun in everyone else's hell?

This seems like merely a particular case of a much broader debate: how many different heavens are there? Even apart from questions of different religions each believing in a heaven where only their own group can go - do all Catholics, say, have the same heaven? Does that mean two Catholics with strongly different views on many things, who loathed each other in life, risk running into each other and resuming their fight in heaven? Or a less extreme example, say someone madly in love with someone else who doesn't return the feeling - are they together in heaven?

If you're wondering how that's relevant, the way I see it is that, given the axiom of heaven being a place of eternal bliss, you could make a case for everyone having their own individual heaven, in which other people obviously would appear, but without having full agency because that would entail the risk of fights.

That's certainly how I would interpret the Titanic heaven scene, in any case - it's Rose's personal heaven, where even Jack is an idealized version of himself without full agency, never mind everybody else. Though either way, fair point on how harsh that is for her spouse and the father of her children.

View original postOr for one more example, to get off the theme of James Horner soundtracks tricking us into underthinking eternal rewards, think about the ramifications of the finale of "Les Miserables" where Hugh Jackman and Anne Hathaway end up on the barricades with the filthy commies. Are the barricades hell, in which case, like 98% of the cast died for nothing, their revolt was wrong and they are being punished for it, or is it heaven for them? If they were truly motivated by justice and desperation, then heaven should be a world where they have the things for which they were ostensibly fighting, not the struggle itself. Because if heaven is the barricades, that is, the actual battle, then they aren't really heroes, nor are they desperate people pushed to their limits, they are troublemakers who were only fighting for the sake of causing uprest, for the excitement or violence of it all. In which case they DON'T deserve heaven, so the barricades HAVE to be hell. In other words, the scene of Hugh Jackman and Anne Hathaway (why is she so excited about them, she died years before the riots? Is watching your future son-in-law's dead friends pointlessly wreck the city heaven or hell? ) proudly observing them and singing along, is actually subverting the entire seeming point of the movie/novel. The fact that Jackman (I watched a lot of I Love Lucy as a kid; I can't say his character's name with a straight face) turns away from the bishop & church to watch the guys on the barricade suggests too, that it lies in the opposite direction of heaven.

I don't fully recollect those scenes, either, so honest question: is there a reason why it has to be either heaven or hell? Can't it be simply ghosts who appear at the conclusion of the story they played an essential role in, for better or for worse?

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Movie heaven is wierd - 29/03/2017 12:05:19 PM 529 Views
Oh, fun, metaphysics debate. - 29/03/2017 07:59:59 PM 362 Views
Re: Oh, fun, metaphysics debate. - 30/03/2017 01:31:38 AM 452 Views
I don't think you should view me as representative for all liberals. - 30/03/2017 07:53:55 AM 420 Views
It's funny anyway - 30/03/2017 05:19:43 PM 457 Views
Hollywood is filled with vapid egotistical morons - 30/03/2017 02:49:00 AM 362 Views

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