Okay, last weekend, we're playing D&D (my wife referees). There's this whole sequence where one character gets tracked down by his mom, who shows up with a whole troop of house and city guard.
We're not sure what's going on, but as he's confronted he starts looking like "his life is over" and "crushed utterly" (the player's own description).
The guards are keeping everyone away, including his employer (me) and not letting anyone else even TALK to him or the woman. They're asked to get out of the way. It's explained that he's performing critical service to the church. I ask the the High Priest be summoned as this is, indeed, a very critical task we're on.
All blown off and they threaten to arrest me.
Okay - now this is a guy who is involved in a mission directly sponsored by the GODDESS who at one point even sent a manifest avatar. A genuine miracle. He's also risked his life for the quest and the like. Now he's getting ready to be frog marched away by a bunch of goons working for his mom looking like he's going to his doom. State sponsored kidnap? An execution for family politics? Something else? No way to know.
"Get the hell out of my way or get my High Priest in here. I'm going to find out what's going on!"
"Back in your room or I'll arrest you!"
"Try and and I'll arc-weld you into that tin suit bucko - get out of the way!"
So one of the other PLAYERS takes offense at this and attacks me with the plan of subduing me and handing me over to these guards. Despite being a mage/priest (and a very non-combat one at that) I get away and make my escape on a flying carpet.
Okay - a bit odd and stressful but whatever.
The player who attacked me is like "That was an EVIL act!" (My character is good, but not lawful). I'm like - "Huh? What was?"
"You threated to kill that guard. That was EVIL!"
"Well, so is kidnapping."
"He was just doing his job and they weren't kidnapping anyone."
Now, out of character I know this to be true. In character, no way.
"Preventing state supported kidnapping is evil? I don't think so. Even if that wasn't what was going on, threats are nothing. Just hot air unless acted on. Besides, the guy was being a little-tin-god jackass and people on a mission from their god don't tolerate that kind of interference when the job isn't done."
"It was EVIL."
"Well, I disagree and it's not for you to decide what my character does."
"But YOU agree it's evil!"
"I think nothing of the sort. It wasn't lawful, no but I'm not lawful. It might not have been very smart either, but that doesn't make it evil."
"You threatened to kill him!"
"He threatened to arrest me when no crime was committed other than refusing to mindlessly do his bidding and when he was involved in a pretty shady act. I could have wound up knifed in a sewer someplace. Sorry, doesn't fly."
"He was just doing his job! Evil!"
"Well, if his job involves arresting people attempting to interfere with what looks like a kidnapping, then the law is evil and he's getting what comes to him. Sorry, no."
This goes on this way for some time like that. We table it all to next game.
Now, I'm perfectly cool with retiring my character or even not playing in this game anymore. I'm not a big D&D fan anyway and I don't need this kind of BS. So we get started and this player - a good friend of mine mind you - starts screaming at me once all this comes up, as of course it has to, that I have to admit to him that what I believe is fine is EVIL or he's leaving!
I tell him I will do nothing of the kind and that that is a silly request. I don't believe it to be evil and if I told him so I would be simply lying to him. I'm no hypocrite and won't lie just to make him happy and I do not agree with him.
He storms out of the house yelling.
I go after him, not even bothering with coat or shoes and am standing on my front steps with my socks freezing to the ice going "What the hell is with you - this makes no sense."
I wind up sitting on the steps trying to explain to him that, sorry, we have different backgrounds and I wasn't brought up with the expectation that everyone in law enforcement is automatically right when they're being feth-wipes. This is a fantasy game where people come BACK from the dead quite easily - real world arguments aren't appropriate but even so, I don't share his views on the rule of law trumping everything else.
He starts going on about how it's EVIL and I tell him, "Not in my culture. I grew up with the Boston Tea Party, the Revolution and Shays' Rebellion as people being heroic. This is no different."
He then goes on about how he believes ethics are completely universal, the same for all species etc. and I'm looking at him like he's grown another head. Ethics, of course, are set by cultures and what's ethical in one may be entirely unethical in another. Trying to claim some kind of universal ethics meter is interesting, but I don't agree with it.
I tell him I'm fine on agreeing to disagree on this matter, but honestly, his 'ethics' are no more valid than mine and I don't share them. I was raised differently and see things differently.
I think we get this sorted (after like an hour of talking him out of his tirade in the front hall) and we start gaming again.
I've decided that I'll let the character get convinced to give his guy another chance (despite feeling he's a traitor who cannot be relied upon - after all who knows when he'll switch sides again?) but that it won't be easy.
It's not going so well so some other players ask me to handwave it so we can get back to the game. I'm not happy about this but ask the ref if I can have an epiphany from the goddess that we need him. This will mean I'll tolerate him and they can eventually work through it over some game sessions. Not a bad thing. It'll make for good roleplay.
Well we just get started and he comes in and is right back on it again. Wound right back up and demanding I agree with his ethical decision on the matter that it was EVIL. I tell him, again, no. I don't believe that and won't lie to him to make him feel better. Particularly not as part of some kind of ultimatum. Such a statement would be valueless and insincere. I told him we could certainly talk about more or agree to disagree but that he'd probably not convince me that I was wrong as that's a pretty centrally held belief for me.
He then accuses me of "Just wanting me to be right" and "wanting him out of the game" and starts to storm off again. I'm pretty pissed off by this time but still try to stay calm.
"No, it's not about that at all and never has been. I'm sorry I disagree with you but I'm not going to lie to you. Stay. I'll change characters or leave the game if you like. But it's not and has never been about that."
He storms off again with another person (possibly trying to talk sense into him) and the game busts up.
I'm entirely bemused and confused and not a little hurt over this. You don't just call someone's values 'evil' just because you disagree with them. Well, not unless they're advocating eating babies or something. Standing up to authority even with arms if need be is not innately evil! Threatening someone? In a world where resurrection is cheap and readily available? Pfah. It barely counts as an inconvenience.
The whole thing is just so stupid and yet I may lose a long term friend over it. Nonetheless I'm still not going to lie to him. I don't believe such things are evil. I've stood up to 'the man' before and may have to again before my life is out. I haven't ever had to fight with one, but with the right motivation I wouldn't hesitate. They aren't perfect just because someone gave them some authority. They can be right/reasonable or wrong/unreasonable. The first merits cooperation, the second resistance to or beyond the full measure of the law (depending on what they're enforcing).
Nonetheless, an extremely upsetting evening.
We're not sure what's going on, but as he's confronted he starts looking like "his life is over" and "crushed utterly" (the player's own description).
The guards are keeping everyone away, including his employer (me) and not letting anyone else even TALK to him or the woman. They're asked to get out of the way. It's explained that he's performing critical service to the church. I ask the the High Priest be summoned as this is, indeed, a very critical task we're on.
All blown off and they threaten to arrest me.
Okay - now this is a guy who is involved in a mission directly sponsored by the GODDESS who at one point even sent a manifest avatar. A genuine miracle. He's also risked his life for the quest and the like. Now he's getting ready to be frog marched away by a bunch of goons working for his mom looking like he's going to his doom. State sponsored kidnap? An execution for family politics? Something else? No way to know.
"Get the hell out of my way or get my High Priest in here. I'm going to find out what's going on!"
"Back in your room or I'll arrest you!"
"Try and and I'll arc-weld you into that tin suit bucko - get out of the way!"
So one of the other PLAYERS takes offense at this and attacks me with the plan of subduing me and handing me over to these guards. Despite being a mage/priest (and a very non-combat one at that) I get away and make my escape on a flying carpet.
Okay - a bit odd and stressful but whatever.
The player who attacked me is like "That was an EVIL act!" (My character is good, but not lawful). I'm like - "Huh? What was?"
"You threated to kill that guard. That was EVIL!"
"Well, so is kidnapping."
"He was just doing his job and they weren't kidnapping anyone."
Now, out of character I know this to be true. In character, no way.
"Preventing state supported kidnapping is evil? I don't think so. Even if that wasn't what was going on, threats are nothing. Just hot air unless acted on. Besides, the guy was being a little-tin-god jackass and people on a mission from their god don't tolerate that kind of interference when the job isn't done."
"It was EVIL."
"Well, I disagree and it's not for you to decide what my character does."
"But YOU agree it's evil!"
"I think nothing of the sort. It wasn't lawful, no but I'm not lawful. It might not have been very smart either, but that doesn't make it evil."
"You threatened to kill him!"
"He threatened to arrest me when no crime was committed other than refusing to mindlessly do his bidding and when he was involved in a pretty shady act. I could have wound up knifed in a sewer someplace. Sorry, doesn't fly."
"He was just doing his job! Evil!"
"Well, if his job involves arresting people attempting to interfere with what looks like a kidnapping, then the law is evil and he's getting what comes to him. Sorry, no."
This goes on this way for some time like that. We table it all to next game.
Now, I'm perfectly cool with retiring my character or even not playing in this game anymore. I'm not a big D&D fan anyway and I don't need this kind of BS. So we get started and this player - a good friend of mine mind you - starts screaming at me once all this comes up, as of course it has to, that I have to admit to him that what I believe is fine is EVIL or he's leaving!
I tell him I will do nothing of the kind and that that is a silly request. I don't believe it to be evil and if I told him so I would be simply lying to him. I'm no hypocrite and won't lie just to make him happy and I do not agree with him.
He storms out of the house yelling.
I go after him, not even bothering with coat or shoes and am standing on my front steps with my socks freezing to the ice going "What the hell is with you - this makes no sense."
I wind up sitting on the steps trying to explain to him that, sorry, we have different backgrounds and I wasn't brought up with the expectation that everyone in law enforcement is automatically right when they're being feth-wipes. This is a fantasy game where people come BACK from the dead quite easily - real world arguments aren't appropriate but even so, I don't share his views on the rule of law trumping everything else.
He starts going on about how it's EVIL and I tell him, "Not in my culture. I grew up with the Boston Tea Party, the Revolution and Shays' Rebellion as people being heroic. This is no different."
He then goes on about how he believes ethics are completely universal, the same for all species etc. and I'm looking at him like he's grown another head. Ethics, of course, are set by cultures and what's ethical in one may be entirely unethical in another. Trying to claim some kind of universal ethics meter is interesting, but I don't agree with it.
I tell him I'm fine on agreeing to disagree on this matter, but honestly, his 'ethics' are no more valid than mine and I don't share them. I was raised differently and see things differently.
I think we get this sorted (after like an hour of talking him out of his tirade in the front hall) and we start gaming again.
I've decided that I'll let the character get convinced to give his guy another chance (despite feeling he's a traitor who cannot be relied upon - after all who knows when he'll switch sides again?) but that it won't be easy.
It's not going so well so some other players ask me to handwave it so we can get back to the game. I'm not happy about this but ask the ref if I can have an epiphany from the goddess that we need him. This will mean I'll tolerate him and they can eventually work through it over some game sessions. Not a bad thing. It'll make for good roleplay.
Well we just get started and he comes in and is right back on it again. Wound right back up and demanding I agree with his ethical decision on the matter that it was EVIL. I tell him, again, no. I don't believe that and won't lie to him to make him feel better. Particularly not as part of some kind of ultimatum. Such a statement would be valueless and insincere. I told him we could certainly talk about more or agree to disagree but that he'd probably not convince me that I was wrong as that's a pretty centrally held belief for me.
He then accuses me of "Just wanting me to be right" and "wanting him out of the game" and starts to storm off again. I'm pretty pissed off by this time but still try to stay calm.
"No, it's not about that at all and never has been. I'm sorry I disagree with you but I'm not going to lie to you. Stay. I'll change characters or leave the game if you like. But it's not and has never been about that."
He storms off again with another person (possibly trying to talk sense into him) and the game busts up.
I'm entirely bemused and confused and not a little hurt over this. You don't just call someone's values 'evil' just because you disagree with them. Well, not unless they're advocating eating babies or something. Standing up to authority even with arms if need be is not innately evil! Threatening someone? In a world where resurrection is cheap and readily available? Pfah. It barely counts as an inconvenience.
The whole thing is just so stupid and yet I may lose a long term friend over it. Nonetheless I'm still not going to lie to him. I don't believe such things are evil. I've stood up to 'the man' before and may have to again before my life is out. I haven't ever had to fight with one, but with the right motivation I wouldn't hesitate. They aren't perfect just because someone gave them some authority. They can be right/reasonable or wrong/unreasonable. The first merits cooperation, the second resistance to or beyond the full measure of the law (depending on what they're enforcing).
Nonetheless, an extremely upsetting evening.
What a ridiculous and tragic thing...
- 07/03/2010 09:34:55 AM
858 Views
Very strange. Sounds like he needs to calm down and realize it's just a game.
- 07/03/2010 10:08:04 AM
491 Views
This happens in gaming groups sometimes, there's an easy fix
- 07/03/2010 04:26:17 PM
467 Views
Not that he isn't being a jerk, but maybe you could allow that he is right in this fictional world.
- 07/03/2010 05:05:12 PM
421 Views
I kept waiting for Bel-Air... *NM*
- 07/03/2010 05:53:06 PM
203 Views
well for one, resurrection isn't SUPPOSED to be cheap and accessible
- 07/03/2010 06:13:41 PM
423 Views
- 07/03/2010 06:13:41 PM
423 Views
Why do YOU have be cleared of evil charges? Why does it matter if he calls you evil?
- 08/03/2010 12:38:17 AM
424 Views
Because he's taken it out of the game
- 08/03/2010 06:03:37 AM
411 Views
Alignments can suck it
- 10/03/2010 04:20:24 PM
417 Views
I'm not a fan of them either
- 10/03/2010 10:27:34 PM
393 Views
If you think spellcasters are wimps, than you are doing it wrong
- 11/03/2010 02:28:50 AM
438 Views
Re: If you think spellcasters are wimps, than you are doing it wrong
- 11/03/2010 02:10:09 PM
406 Views
Agree about one thing disagree about another
- 11/03/2010 03:21:20 PM
392 Views
Well for me it's like this...
- 11/03/2010 06:19:26 PM
373 Views
Oh and I don't see the reduction of damage of damage for mages to be a bad thing
- 11/03/2010 06:30:01 PM
390 Views
It's just very different
- 12/03/2010 03:15:43 PM
408 Views
If that is what you want to do play an archer/thrower and get a bard ally
- 13/03/2010 01:06:25 AM
480 Views
