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Well, the thing is, "American" is PURELY a culture, not a race. Joel Send a noteboard - 23/03/2010 01:55:59 PM
I think most people would expect "Indian" music to originate in the Indian subcontinent, not just Indian culture.

I think you are wrong - if a group of people of Indian birth recorded a style of song that is traditionally Indian using only traditionally Indian instruments and the vocals were in Hindi, would the music not still be Indian even if it were recorded in Wolverhampton in the UK rather than in India? You, based on what you have said, would argue that it isn't Indian music but in the UK it would be.

I think most people would EXPECT that music to have come from the subcontinent unless they were specifically told it was from the UK. And if the musicians were of Indian birth I would take that to mean they were born in India, not the UK, so it would still be Indian music by any estimation regardless of where it was actually recorded. Playing Led Zeppelin on the Moon doesn't make it "Lunar music. " Now, if we're talking about native Brits of Indian descent recording traditionally Indian music in the UK, well, now we're a lot closer to what jazz and blues actually are, but I also suspect that, consciously or not, elements of traditionally BRITISH culture would creep in to increasing degrees. It's really a good parallel, in fact; is John Lennon or George Harrison playing a sitar "Indian music"? I suspect whether such music is authentic or they're just interlopers depends on whom you ask.
However, we're dealing here with distinctly American, not African, music, and if we start classifying American music along racial lines it sets off various alarms for a lot of people.


It might well do in America but it is a way of classifying music based on the culture it came from - black culture. I don't see that the Dutch should have to worry about over sensitive American perceptions of race;)

If we want to speak of where it originated, maybe "black" music is OK, but it's long since ceased to be that; jazz has been (wrongly) called the only uniquely AMERICAN (not "black" ) music. Enjoying and performing jazz crosses racial and even cultural lines (personally I don't care for it; it always seems to be trying too hard for my taste, and often a bit pretentious, as in its advocates claims that it's the only truly American music, which ignores blues, country and rock to name just the most obvious. ) In terms of antecedents jazz is "black" music alright, but only at a level where jazz, blues and gospel were variations on a single underlying cultural theme (and it gets quite murky there, because the latter two start to include the Appalachian traditions born in Scotland and Ireland and enshrined in Nashville. ;))

Not that the same issues can't arise with other music, but it remains particularly sensitive here because of the history. I think it safe to say that as long as Nation of Islam exists the issues of assimilation and integration that produced it do, too. As long as the Souths unofficial anthem is a product of the traveling minstrel shows (no lie) and a black Presidential candidate has to go from accusations of not being black enough to accusations of being TOO black, jazz radio commercials dousing hosts with paint to make them "blacker than ever" will seem racially insensitive (at best) to most Americans. Of course, the Netherlands aren't part of the US, but jazz is.

Jazz is? So jazz can be classified as American music, even if it is written and played by a Dutch guy, but it can't be described as black music even if that Dutch guy is black and the music is of black origiin?

Again, America is a nation and a culture, but it is NOT a distinct race; few nations are anymore, which is ultimately a good thing, but I think it's far more true in America than anywhere else. If America were a dog our breed would be "mutt. " Our best moments have been when we all identified as "American" sans hyphen, and our worst when we racially segregated. That makes all the difference here, IMHO, because things like musical taste can very easily be defined by culture, but not by race unless we embrace some very ugly and thoroughly discredited ideas. The case of a black Dutchman playing jazz highlights that aspect well; he may be black, and I white, but when he's playing jazz he's playing music more from my culture than his. It's "Straight Outta Compton" not "Newly Written in Amsterdam" (or, of course, NWA for short. :P) Ultimately, I think jazz is more of American than black origin, and, again, I think that's a good thing. In those terms it's easier to understand the appeal to people who wouldn't be considered even remotely black, and the subtle interplay between other forms of American music, some of which are often considered as "white" as jazz is considered "black. " Les Paul and Chet Atkins were virtuoso jazz guitarists, and the world is better for it even if they found little audience for that music with either devotees of "black" music like jazz or the predominantly white audiences that wanted to hear them play country.

Music is music, and while it's frequently defined culturally, it should never be defined racially; few things apart from genetics should be, IMHO. We're getting into complicated and controversial areas in a lot of respects here, because I also think jazz and blues could, at least for many years, better be called "black" music in the North than the South, because on many levels the whole reason the South had Jim Crow in the first place was because it was long far more integrated than the North in other ways. The widespread existence of "separate but equal" facilities pretty well establishes that whites and blacks were interacting regularly and extensively, and the creation of ghettos in Harlem and Watts taught many blacks fleeing Southern racism that the problem wasn't really geographic. That said, the implication above that ads suggesting music is "too black" would be offensive but ads suggesting music is "too white" (or whatever) are not is reminiscent of the same problems America has had for a while, and the reason terms like "black music" are troublesome. It conjures up images of liberal white guilt, of privileged whites somehow thinking they've expiated sins in which they COULDN'T have been complicit by patronizing (in every sense) "black music" and of blacks who resent white poseurs trying to appropriate "their" music. No, Europe probably doesn't have those kinds of problems: I recommend leaving it that way. ;)
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Is it racist?: Commercial for Jazz/Soul radio - 22/03/2010 01:47:45 PM 2586 Views
I'd say that's pretty racist. - 22/03/2010 01:53:59 PM 633 Views
I don't think it's racist at all - 22/03/2010 07:15:55 PM 660 Views
Uh. - 22/03/2010 09:36:35 PM 777 Views
Re: Uh. - 29/03/2010 07:03:14 PM 718 Views
I'm not Dutch, but that was a pretty ignornant claim - 29/03/2010 07:20:09 PM 648 Views
Re: I'm not Dutch, but that was a pretty ignornant claim - 29/03/2010 07:28:34 PM 735 Views
Not "higher" nor "lower," but "different" would be the word to use here - 29/03/2010 07:46:15 PM 584 Views
Re: Not "higher" nor "lower," but "different" would be the word to use here - 29/03/2010 07:53:56 PM 538 Views
An illustration of Larry's point... - 29/03/2010 08:14:55 PM 602 Views
This. ~points at Larry's post~ *NM* - 29/03/2010 07:42:35 PM 375 Views
Re: This. ~points at Larry's post~ - 29/03/2010 07:57:30 PM 626 Views
Um. - 29/03/2010 08:00:54 PM 766 Views
Re: Um. - 29/03/2010 08:44:31 PM 556 Views
My question for you was on that one line that Larry responded to. - 29/03/2010 08:46:26 PM 601 Views
I was thinking the same thing as Rebekah - 23/03/2010 07:15:51 AM 636 Views
I don't see it - 22/03/2010 08:19:31 PM 627 Views
+1 *NM* - 22/03/2010 08:30:01 PM 356 Views
Re: +2 *NM* - 22/03/2010 09:53:43 PM 361 Views
Re: +3 *NM* - 22/03/2010 10:00:55 PM 338 Views
i'd say the actions in the commercial are more racist than the words - 22/03/2010 10:00:02 PM 631 Views
It would not float here in the US - 22/03/2010 10:07:08 PM 632 Views
Agreed. - 23/03/2010 05:36:14 AM 792 Views
Could you please expand on one point in your reasoning? - 23/03/2010 07:20:31 AM 630 Views
It's not race specific music if it's enjoyed/performed/presented by various races. - 23/03/2010 07:32:33 AM 866 Views
MOBO - 23/03/2010 10:20:22 AM 579 Views
Nice term, if a bit clumsy - 23/03/2010 11:10:34 AM 592 Views
The trouble lies in historical neuroses cooked in our melting pot, I think. - 23/03/2010 11:29:06 AM 625 Views
I suspect so as well - 23/03/2010 12:32:00 PM 720 Views
Well, the thing is, "American" is PURELY a culture, not a race. - 23/03/2010 01:55:59 PM 800 Views
That's part of what I was thinking - 23/03/2010 07:50:19 AM 947 Views
Only if it's racist to mention the fact that different races exist. Which seems to be the US view. - 23/03/2010 09:24:23 AM 619 Views
Agreed - 23/03/2010 10:21:59 AM 648 Views
Not at all, the problem is when people seem to say something is exclusive to a given race. - 23/03/2010 11:51:06 AM 856 Views
I agree with some of what you say, but I think you're assuming more than is warranted. - 23/03/2010 02:33:34 PM 589 Views
perhaps not as default... - 23/03/2010 03:08:19 PM 655 Views
The term encompasses listeners, performers and presenters. - 23/03/2010 04:42:55 PM 666 Views
So it's really not about skin color any more, right? - 23/03/2010 09:12:20 PM 713 Views
it's racist and unacceptable. - 23/03/2010 09:07:10 PM 740 Views

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