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It's been denied for eighty-five years. It can wait five more. Legolas Send a noteboard - 03/04/2010 07:47:57 PM
And yes, I'm arguing that the Great War laid the foundation for WWII, not only in terms of the nationalistic tensions it seeded, but in terms of the alarming willingness in much of Europe to tolerate any level of bloodshed and atrocity so long as we don't call it "war. " Europe is still wrestling with the cultural and religious legacy of the Muslim push past Constantinople into Europe, and with Milosevic a recent memory I don't think it's a great idea to admit Turkey to the EU while its government denies the previous governments genocide during the Great War. That previous government was the same group that two centuries earlier led an army to the gates of Vienna before being repelled. In an age of Mid-Eastern religious terror aimed at the West, the fact that Turkeys rulers TODAY are a small clique of well armed secularists less willing than the religious element to accept responsibility makes rolling out the red carpet while they deny their past very ill advised, IMHO. I'm not choosing Ataturks side or anyone elses here because, as with Israel and Palestine, I don't see a side worth endorsing. It often seems the only European who learned anything from the Armenian genocide was Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter (yet another WWII legacy of the Balkan role in the Great War. )

I really can't agree with your blaming religion for all the Osman wars of expansion in Europe. In the Crusades there were more factors than religion there too, but there at least it makes more sense to state religion was the primary factor. But the Europeans of the 12th and 13th century were rather different from the Europeans of the 16th century, nevermind the end of the 17th. France had an open and long-standing alliance with the Osman Empire. Not because France was less religious or less Christian or less Catholic than the other European countries, but because it was politically convenient - they had a joint enemy in the Habsburgs. In 1689, that alliance wasn't really functional anymore, but still the siege of Vienna was a simple political war, not some kind of special religious war, for all that the pope tried to claim it was one. Europe had almost constant war in those centuries, most of them between Christian nations. And the Osmans, too, fought their wars of conquest (or in some cases defensive wars) against their Muslim "brethren in faith" as much as against the Christians: they conquered the Mamluke Empire and then waged constant wars against the Safavids, as well as trying to keep the Arabian peninsula under their thumb.

Other than that, we'll have to disagree on there being no side worthy of support in Turkey.
Put more simply, the EU retains a simmering problem in religious and nationalistic clashes in the southeast, and whether a religiously nationalistic or a militarily nationalistic Turkish government is denying that nations contributions in the form of the Armenian Genocide, admitting them to the EU while they do so isn't helping a centuries old problem in desperate need of resolution rather than exacerbation. Maybe if Turkey could acknowledge the past and find a way forward the way Germany did with the Nazis they could be a fine model for the Balkans. As it stands, the Germans have managed to evolve, suffer the horrors of and finally repudiate the Holocaust while Turkey still denies its inspiration ever occurred. It's baffling to me why a place that's made Holocaust denial ILLEGAL in many areas will condone a prospective member denying its prototype ever happened. How they'll handle Scheubner-Richter in history books I have no idea, since it's illegal both to deny his role in the Nazi Holocaust and (in future EU member Turkey) admit to the Armenian Genocide he documented.

Their admission to the EU is still years in the future even if France and Germany give in and allow them to join. Recognition of the Armenian Genocide isn't the only or even most important hurdle they have to take before that time. But I really don't see how this political grandstanding of the American Senate is going to help the US' professed goals of helping that accession process, quite the contrary in fact.
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Heh, Erdogan is pissed - 04/03/2010 10:47:20 PM 302 Views
Sigh. I wish they would stop trying to pass that. - 04/03/2010 10:55:58 PM 193 Views
If Erdogan has no problem making scenes like the one in Davos why should he expect any less ? - 05/03/2010 12:11:33 AM 183 Views
What, are you still mad about that? - 05/03/2010 12:30:57 AM 185 Views
With all due respect, fuck Turkey. - 05/03/2010 12:35:03 AM 188 Views
With all due respect, that's nothing new coming from you. - 05/03/2010 12:48:05 AM 186 Views
Turkey is an abomination. - 05/03/2010 01:20:31 AM 189 Views
I don't like the new military uniform colors. Off to prison!!! *NM* - 05/03/2010 01:38:58 AM 84 Views
I agree with Tom *NM* - 05/03/2010 12:50:13 AM 83 Views
How is denying the eponym's genocide improving relations with Armenia? - 05/03/2010 01:44:17 AM 191 Views
Please don't throw the Hagia Sophia. - 05/03/2010 02:01:31 AM 197 Views
Perish the thought. - 05/03/2010 02:13:15 AM 164 Views
Modern Armenia looks at it rather differently than the diaspora does. - 05/03/2010 09:58:21 AM 185 Views
Yes, but the Turks are pretending not to understand democracy - 05/03/2010 11:04:25 AM 174 Views
I imagine modern Armenia is more placating, yes. - 15/03/2010 05:58:24 AM 173 Views
I'm sorry, but really, you do not have a clue. - 15/03/2010 01:02:50 PM 213 Views
Whether motivated by religion or pure nationalism allowing genocide to be denied is a bad precedent. - 03/04/2010 11:04:53 AM 193 Views
It's been denied for eighty-five years. It can wait five more. - 03/04/2010 07:47:57 PM 185 Views
Re: It's been denied for eighty-five years. It can wait five more. - 08/04/2010 09:47:31 AM 189 Views
I wish the Turks would just admit it on their own. - 05/03/2010 12:33:27 AM 172 Views
I agree. They just need to man up and admit it, apologize, and move on. *NM* - 05/03/2010 01:38:12 AM 79 Views
So what? - 05/03/2010 01:40:22 AM 207 Views
I think it is a trickey one. - 05/03/2010 10:18:02 AM 180 Views

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