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It is an article with a lot of weak points, I agree. Legolas Send a noteboard - 06/05/2019 07:55:42 PM

View original postAnd this story came screaming back when I got on the internet about 18-19 years ago. One genre property that was heavily scrutinized at the time was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And this show and its writers could do no wrong by a certain subset of the fandom, because there was this character called "Tara". She was the love interest of a core main character. Of the same sex. She was a nice and decent person, her role in the story beyond her relationship had nothing to do with her sexuality. She was not a stereotype or cliche. No one disliked Tara aside from people who wanted Willow to have skinnier girlfriend or no girlfriend. And even some of those did not actually mind her. So when it came time to A. kill off a character who would be loved and missed and B. have an inciting incident to complete Willow's long foreshadowed (and forewarned, largely by Tara) fall to the Dark Side, it made perfect narrative sense to kill Tara near the end of the penultimate season. And the LGBTQWERTYIOP section of the fandom still has not forgiven Joss Whedon. Tara belonged to them, you see. Straight white cis males do NOT get to make creative decisions about characters who are not, because they belong to that community, and Joss Whedon and company have an obligation to service their wishes over his own concerns or agenda or intentions in creating the character and setting in the first place. Joss Whedon had every right to betray the Willow-Oz or Willow-Xander shippers by making Willow gay (also, having been interested in multiple males and an enthusiastic sexual partner of one for three and a half season, literally half her narrative existence wouldn't bisexual be a better term for Willow? Unless bisexuals are poly-amorous by definition and the "bi" refers to concurrent interests & activities), but when it's a lesbian ox being gored, that's a whole other thing.

I agree that it makes narrative sense - when so much of the season arc is based on Willow going to the dark side, it's a rather logical move to kill off her love interest.

However, two points. Firstly, there was then and to some extent still is today, a remarkable pattern in pop culture where lesbian characters did increasingly appear, but suspiciously often ended up killed or in any case denied a happy ending. The Willow-Tara relationship was quite notable, as you point out, for how natural and non-stereotypical it felt - until its abrupt end that did very much fit the usual pattern. Not too surprising if lesbian viewers got particularly upset.

Secondly, Whedon did rather go out of his way to make her death as upsetting as possible - not only to Willow, but also to viewers. I'm neither LGBT nor a SJW (or at least, I don't see myself as such, I don't know what you think ), but for me too, Tara's death remains one of the most shocking and upsetting moments I've seen on any TV show.

Remember the background: earlier in the season, Tara finds herself forced to break up with the woman she loves, because Willow repeatedly works mind spells on her in Once More With Feeling and Tabula Rasa. Which then results in Willow spiralling out of control, but by this point in the season she's sort of semi-recovered and Tara is seeing her again. Then you get to Seeing Red and for the first time ever, you see Amber Benson promoted from guest star to series regular appearing in the main cast credits. That episode is pretty shocking earlier on with Spike attempting to rape Buffy, but then seemingly ends on a more positive note with Willow and Tara having made up and being together again. And then, out of nowhere, Warren's randomly fired bullet that just so happens to hit and kill Tara.

I mean, really. He clearly wanted to make it as painful as possible, raising Tara fans' hopes with the credits and the relationship getting repaired before cruelly dashing them, so he reaped what he sowed. Good thing Benson refused Whedon's invitation to add insult to injury by having her appear as The First Evil-as-Tara in season seven.

View original postThe ever more voracious demands of SJW fandom grew harder to appease, until we got the last few years where long-standing popular genre franchises were altered to appease them, giving us the flawless, perfect, self-taught, all-powerful Captain Marvel and Rey, whose male acquaintances were fawning, less selfish & just as inept versions of Xander, who didn't need men to teach or help them with anything, aside from some of the boring stuff that's not as cinematic, and who were on good terms with all the female characters on the right correct side of the hero-villain divide.

I have no idea how much Captain Marvel in the movie was altered from the comics version to 'appease SJWs', but as for Rey, um, they were continuing the story with a new hero anyway. I'm a little unclear on how having a new female Jedi character is 'altering the long-standing franchise' any more than having a new male one. And while there are plenty of valid reasons to be unimpressed by The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, I really don't think Rey ranks among them. Not that her character is all that well-written, but honestly, this is Star Wars, you can't exactly claim that for most other characters either.
View original postBut for some reason, the producers of Avengers:Endgame felt the need to make a movie about the titular characters, who had built up a following over 11 years, and to service their characters and storylines and try to gives something to ALL the fans of the MCU. Including some with white skin AND prostates and other interests or priorities than being good allies.

I think your point here is the most fundamental problem of this Tor article. As you say, Endgame is meant as a coda to the entire MCU until now and needs to touch on characters and storylines from all movies. If most of those movies had male titular heroes with women mostly as love interests or side-kicks, then Endgame wouldn't be serving its intended purpose too well if it was suddenly dominated by female characters as the author seems to expect. They already kind of shoe-horned Captain Marvel into the Avengers last-minute in such a way that prior fans of the MCU are more likely to be irritated than enthusiastic about her. They already allowed Gamora and Nebula to represent the Guardians almost on their own with minimal screentime for most of their male (and tree) colleagues.

So really, the premise of this article seems misguided from the start - if you feel (and I would actually agree with that) that the MCU until date hasn't done too well in terms of heroine representation, it's absurd to expect improvement in Endgame. Expect it in new movies in the next phase.

View original postWhen discussing Natasha's sacrifice, Asher-Perrin claims the "connotations...speak louder than the action itself" and goes back to the tired old complaint about her "lament" about her sterilization. First of all, I saw "Age of Ultron". Natasha was not lamenting her sterilization, and she, contrary to the frequent feminist critiques, was not claiming it made her a monster or less human. She was simply responding to Bruce's presumption regarding her relationship goals. Natasha was pursuing a relationship with him over the course of the film, which portrayed her proactive decision in a positive light, and Bruce attempted to tell her why she didn't really want to be with him, citing that the radioactive nature of his transformation would endanger any biological offspring he might produce. Natasha cited her involuntary sterilization at that point, not to demean or diminish herelf, but to point out that he does not know everything about her, certainly not enough to decide for her what she wants in a partner. That at least one issue he assumes is a deal breaker that renders him unfit is actually immaterial to her. And that he's not the only one who has been robbed of body autonomy and physical agency. But the feminists who watch these movies hear keywords pertaining to reproduction and fly off their handles. Asher-Perrin is still harping on it four years later, claiming that in writing Natasha as the sacrifice, they were saying that her infertility makes her less valuable and more disposable. Except this is a thing with men, many times in films. Single or childless men are constantly sacrificing themselves for other men who have families (logically speaking, it should be other way around, since we have not yet had a chance to pass on our genes). It's a real life phenomenon as well. I graduated from an elementary school named after a Holocaust victim who made that very sacrifice on behalf of a man with a family. They were treating Natasha no differently than a male character. Captain America, Hulk or War Machine would absolutely have made the exact same choice as Natasha, with the exact same rationale. And I missed the part where Quicksilver was sterile, if that's the only reason why anyone who die saving Hawkeye's life. At least Black Widow got to be in seven movies, instead of being killed off in her first.

View original postShe goes on an absurd & tortured rationale comparing Natasha's self-sacrifice to Thanos' sacrifice of Gamora, claiming that Natasha doing so vindicates Thanos' act. Which is crap. They were simply told "a soul for a soul". The "that which you love most" is pure nonsense, because clearly, by making the choice, the seeker of the Soul Stone is prioritizing SOMETHING above the sacrificial victim. For any audience members who are not looking for things to complain about any time a woman is on the screen, a theme of "Infinity War" at least was the refusal of the heroes to sacrifice other people, and their willingness to risk or sacrifice their own lives for others, in contrast to Thanos, who will "sacrifice" anyone else to get his way. Captain America insists they don't sacrifice people, Wakanda stands beside Vision rather than send him elsewhere, Dr Strange fails to follow through with his threat to sacrifice Tony or Peter to protect the Time Stone. Star-Lord only pulls the trigger on Gamora, because she asked him to, Wanda blows up Vision because he tells her to, Loki surrenders the Tesseract rather than let Thor be tortured, Gamora can't keep silent when Nebula is being tortured. The willing self-sacrifices of Vision, Gamora and now, Natasha, are what make them heroes, contrasted with Thanos, who abandons all pretense of nobility as soon as his goal is threatened.

Agree with you here - not that it isn't very unfortunate to lose the sole woman from the original crew, especially before she even got a solo movie, but I don't see anything wrong with the how or why. The author did touch on a point that I was also wondering about: wouldn't Nebula have had some idea of how Thanos managed to obtain the Soulstone on Vormir? And if not, shouldn't it have been kind of a big priority to research that before launching this whole plan? During that scene I was going 'wtf, don't tell me you weren't aware of the sacrifice part beforehand'.


View original postMost of the complaints here have to do with the source material the filmmakers have to work with. It's not the fault of the people who made one Marvel film that the studios have failed to give some of the supporting cast their own films. It's not the fault of the filmmakers that Marvel has so few successful female characters. Clearly they WANT some of that Wonder Woman box office, as seen in their attempts to make an over-the-top powerful female character a central figure in their mythos. One minute the article speaks derisively of Captain Marvel as "powered by fists of space-energy and little else" and then goes on in the same paragraph to assert that Scarlet Witch is "always getting sidelined because dealing with her true skillset would make most of the other combatants superfluous". You can't win with this woman. Show off Carol Danvers' powers, and you're under-serving her with your focus on them. Don't make the movie revolve around a latecomer, and it's because you don't want to deal with her powers, because if you followed the books, she'd be too powerful for a conflict. Yeah, because that's what they're afraid of. Archer=God of Thunder is clearly the work of people who have no confidence in their ability to handle power variations.

Agreed, and with most of the rest as well.



View original postYou literally cannot win with these people. Emily Asher-Perrin had an axe to grind, and everything was going to be twisted to fit a version where she could complain, even if she was going to assign opposite meanings to the same plot points or tropes depending on which gender they were being applied to. This is not actual criticism of content, this is moral judgment of content, and presuming to read other people's minds and pass judgment on their moral purity and character. There is no way out, except to stop trying to please these people and just make good stories, they way they did for established moral systems like religion.

This is the part where of course I have to stop agreeing with everything. Not about Asher-Perrin or the article, but about the way you blame 'these people', i.e. 'SJWs', i.e. anyone who dares to speak up about minority, female or LGBT representation in pop culture, for a weak article written by one person. That's weak logic and you wouldn't put up with it for a minute in the reverse case.

On a related subject, I wonder what you'd make of the linked article? The topic is obviously comparable, but I thought its points were much stronger - not in the least because it does actually consider how much they could reasonably expect given the premise of the movie.

Gizmodo article on gay representation in Endgame
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Pandering to SJWs in genre fiction is a no-win game (Endgame spoilers) - 05/05/2019 05:24:38 AM 505 Views
It is an article with a lot of weak points, I agree. - 06/05/2019 07:55:42 PM 362 Views
I'd say it's on a par with LeFou from the new "Beauty & the Beast" - 06/05/2019 10:04:51 PM 361 Views

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