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Re: Game of Thrones 2.04 Garden of Bones: OF COURSE SHE HAS TO HAVE A JOB! Cannoli Send a noteboard - 24/04/2012 01:19:40 PM
While I don't concur with your hatred of women having jobs and real skills and the idea you seem to have that modern feminism denigrates women taking care of children and the home (and thus your hatred for men actually having emotions and doing some of that themselves)

I don't have any objection to women having jobs and skills, but neither do I subscribe to the contemporary view of values as the only right or possible way. I am not objecting to any character having a job, what I am objecting to is the alteration of the circumstances in the books, especially in making someone behave in such an inappropriate manner to their character, simply to service a contemporary prejudice. Robb can date a girl with a job and that is just fine; the problem is not even that they are doing something different than the books, but that they are so obviously attempting to make things conform to a prejudice of our times. The ideal woman being a capable professional is entirely a contemporary convention, and a prejudice not one bit different from a prejudice against interracial relationships or a relationship across social classes. In aSoI&F, the latter is as appalling as the idea of marrying a bimbo or an ignorant loser would be to most of our families.

some of your comments on the episode were spot on. The addition of a "republic" was unnecessary (though seriously if you believe a monarchy is somehow on par as a governing system with a democracy than you are truly more crazy than even I thought)
Most governing systems are pretty acceptable, and the efficacy of any one kind relies entirely on the character of the people operating it, and the people being governed by it. A republic is not always workable for every situation, and real democracy (most people, including apparently you, seem to think deomcracy means voting, when it actually refers to rule by a popular majority) is almost never a good form of government. A properly executed monarchy or feudal aristocracy can handle things just fine, with the right monarchs and feudal aristocrats in charge (which they are not in GoT), but the complaint here, as with the relationship/career issue, is that in a world with different rules, customs and preferences, they are shoehorning in changes to service the very prejudices you demonstrate in your reply - a preference for elected governments, female liberation and gender equality.

As admirable an idea as the equal treatment of men and women is, it is not entirely practicable in a world where government is based on military alliances and military power is entirely based on muscles. Brienne of Tarth is the kind of aberration that proves the rule, as most women simply cannot handle the military obligations that rulership entails. In spite of this, however, the explanations of the system of rule in Westeros show that contrary to popular contemporary assumptions, the typical noblewoman is every bit as much the administrator, diplomat and politician as her titled husband or father. Despite the lack of formal recognition, a noblewoman does for her castle and demesne with a handful of assistants and servants, what your college-educated, pantsuit-wearing crusading feminist politician needs a large professional staff to handle. Most people are uninformed of the facts, write of nobles as archaic versions of "the Real Housewives of ..." and demand a woman who fits into a more modern mold of "accomplished & skilled." Today, a doctor is a big deal, because of all the required education and bureaucratic hoops to jump through. In a medieval setting, not so much, so they are actually degrading the character by taking a well-trained leader and administrator and giving her a job that was actually done by barbers or blacksmiths in their spare time, simply because there is the tiniest bit of overlap between two unrelated modern jobs, and book-Jeyne's & TV-girl's occupations.

and what they are doing to Arya is criminal.
??? Arya is the one character being served the best and most closely associated with her book arc! They are trimming some redundant stuff for time and cost constraints but they are hitting the important points fairly well it seems.
There I leave you though, the way you act surprised about Dany is laughable..this is the way people in a monarchy act and have acted throughout history. Of course she is going to be a little twit.
I don't know where to begin with this. In the first place, I have no problem with Daenerys being a twit, as I have strongly criticized her sense of entitlement and her performance as a ruler and leader on the Books MB on this site. What I have a problem with is that the show does not seem to realize what a snot she is being, and they seem to think she is being brave and strong and justified. And people in democracies and so forth have ALSO acted like this throughout history, despite the blinkered contemporary viewpoint that swallows whole the prejudice that "our way is the best way." At this point in the books, Daenerys had not yet committed any of her more egregious acts, and was doing nothing more than surviving and leading the people who chose to follow her because of her dragons. She did not behave so arrogantly when demanding shelter and assistance from Qarth, but because of the same feminist tropes I decried in regards to how they have induced the writers to degrade the occupation and character of Robb's love interest to service modern tastes, have made Daenerys act like an entitled bitch in order to pander to demands for strong female characters. TV shows and movies, rather than going through the effort to show a character possessing genuine strength (which is not so easy to do in a five minute scene or a few lines of dialogue) settle for making her obnoxious and obstreperous, but since she is a woman and "standing up for herself" it is acceptable and she is being "strong" according to shallow standards, when in fact, she is doing what spoiled people (of either gender) do and demand what she wants when she wants it. She is not standing up for her rights - she has no rights in that situation, and it has nothing to do with her gender, aside from audience sympathy falling on her because she is young and attractive. Anyone emerging from a desert, at the head of a group of people infamous for extorting plunder and tribute from cities has no right to expect anything from any city. It is fairly clear that Qarth's interest in her is contingent upon her dragons, yet she refuses to even prove that she is who she claims to be, demanding that strangers take her word for it, despite her association with their traditional enemies. But it's a pretty girl making the demands, she is not spoiled, she is a Strong Female Character, who is Standing Up for Herself in a Man's World. Just like the doctor chick's incredibly ignorant and uninformed criticism of Robb, which the writers leave him stunned and helpless to respond to, in order to make her look smart and clever and challenging to him. Because Women must be Equal to men in very limited and shallow ways. Snark and witticisms or primitive anatomical knowledge are not a measure of an individual's worth. In aSoI&F, women cannot remotely compete with men in a lot of crucial areas of activity, so George RR Martin created a society where their gender roles are far removed and incapable of comparison, so the question of equal capacity is not an issue. Rather than adhere to this standard, even if the dimmer viewers have trouble grasping the notion of abstract equality of individuals (Martin certainly does not treat his female characters as beings of lesser significance or capabilities), the show has settled for idiotic criteria by which to demonstrate the capabilities and equality of its female characters, even as it degrades and explots its female actresses with gratuitous nudity and sexual objectification.

Really what they are doing wrong is all with Arya they even act like they are going to remove the most important parts of her character. I can't see how they move her from where she is to the isle of the faces and if they change that then I am going to have to stop watching.
She is in Harrenhal, a castle on the SHORE of the lake that contains the Isle of Faces, and she NEVER went to that isle in the books! She DID go to Harrenhal in the books, where she made the connections that took her to Braavos, where she spent the last two books! She also met Jacquen H'gar, who is the one who provides her introduction to the House of the Many Faced God, the same way she met him in the books - as a caged prisoner traveling with Yoren, whom she saves from the fire by tossing him an axe when fleeing the attack by Lorch's men. From there, she ended up in Harrenhal, serving the Lannisters under Tywin, and serving as the cupbearer to the lord in Harrenhal, before leaving. THAT IS WHAT SHE IS DOING ON THE SHOW.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Game of Thrones 2.04 Garden of Bones: OF COURSE SHE HAS TO HAVE A JOB! - 23/04/2012 04:14:01 PM 1017 Views
Yeah, don't know where they're going with the Robb Stark love interest - 23/04/2012 06:14:16 PM 732 Views
Fairly sure they cast Oona Chaplin as Jeyne EDIT - 23/04/2012 07:17:18 PM 586 Views
Or they dropped the character all together, as they seem wont to do *NM* - 23/04/2012 09:21:08 PM 238 Views
There's some confusion here. - 23/04/2012 10:37:56 PM 627 Views
Nice theory with number 2 - 24/04/2012 12:02:17 AM 681 Views
Re: Nice theory with number 2 - 24/04/2012 05:16:49 AM 514 Views
I didn't remember much about the specifics... - 24/04/2012 07:43:19 PM 541 Views
I've actually got a better thought now. - 24/04/2012 11:30:45 PM 660 Views
I'm guessing no. - 23/04/2012 07:50:57 PM 606 Views
Very astute. I concur with everything you said *NM* - 23/04/2012 09:19:53 PM 269 Views
Re: Game of Thrones 2.04 Garden of Bones: OF COURSE SHE HAS TO HAVE A JOB! - 24/04/2012 05:13:02 AM 589 Views
Arya - 24/04/2012 08:58:30 AM 652 Views
Re: Game of Thrones 2.04 Garden of Bones: OF COURSE SHE HAS TO HAVE A JOB! - 24/04/2012 01:19:40 PM 760 Views
+1 - 29/04/2012 07:52:24 PM 487 Views
Re: Game of Thrones 2.04 Garden of Bones: OF COURSE SHE HAS TO HAVE A JOB! - 01/05/2012 01:25:44 AM 487 Views
We've covered this to death on Westeros - 01/05/2012 02:00:49 PM 522 Views
Re: We've covered this to death on Westeros - 09/05/2012 11:40:03 AM 550 Views
Yeah I dunno what to make of that either - 24/04/2012 09:28:48 AM 619 Views
To be fair, non-readers come away with a different experience. - 24/04/2012 02:19:01 PM 584 Views
Re: To be fair, non-readers come away with a different experience. - 01/05/2012 01:27:09 AM 446 Views
Sorry, I thought I had posted a link here last week... - 08/05/2012 07:28:57 AM 639 Views
Re: Sorry, I thought I had posted a link here last week... - 18/05/2012 06:10:02 AM 676 Views

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