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A rebuttal! For the points I disagree with, anyway. Aemon Send a noteboard - 20/12/2009 05:07:59 AM
As far as the special effects go, they were good, but so what?


Special effects allow you to do things you can't do in real life. The better your special effects, the more believable you can make those things. You fairly mention a couple of problems with the effects of this movie, but the fact remains that it was still one of the most realistic looking CGI movies ever. If you don't agree with that, you're definitely in the minority. Not much else I can say on that point, though. Special effects are important for a reason, but the effects actually done are subject to individual opinion.

What is so heroic about killing a smaller, weaker person, who needs a gas mask to survive in the environment, when you have that same environment on your side, as well as a genetically engineered body that is twice his size? His toughness is EARNED through ongoing workouts, while the "hero" is tough because he had a custom-made superhuman body.


It was never "fleshy human vs giant blue monster," though. There'd be nothing heroic about a 1v1, in-the-skin fight. It IS heroic to dismantle a power-suit controlled by a fleshy human, though, and the same principle holds right on up the technological line. As to the environment, the humans certainly bested their own environment (so much so that they can send people billions of miles across the universe), so I don't see why they should be the underdogs in an alien one.

All those words aside though, are you really trying to say that the humans were the underdogs? Really? I feel silly even arguing this point. :P

Anyway, once the good guys win and defeat the humans and save their magic tree, there is a scene of them escorting the evil humans off-planet and the smug narrator talking about how the "aliens were sent back to their dying planet." Oh, really? And these numbskulls think they won? An appropriate analogy would be a 300-lb serial rapist, recently released from prison where he was the inter-penitentiary weight-lifting champ, cornering a 100-lbs Hooters waitress in a dark alley with no one else within miles of them. He pats her butt, she pushes his hand away and slaps his face and spits in his eye. Fade to black, end credits, happy ending! Except we KNOW what is likely to happen next! Avatar does the same thing and the monkey-cat people of Pandora are not going to fare any better than our plucky heroine in the alley.


Firstly, unless I remember incorrectly, the smug narrator was the main character. Of course that was his stance. Secondly, this point contradicts your last. If the humans are the underdogs, why is it wrong for the Na'avi to realistically think that they won? The answer to this is what negates this argument of yours: "the humans" were not "the united peoples of earth." It wasn't even "a government." We weren't at war with them. The humans on Pandora were a small commercial operation with a force of mercenaries to protect them.

The mercenaries, obviously, were defeated, and several billion future-dollars worth of equipment utterly destroyed. That's to say nothing of the cost of sending an expedition of that size across the universe in the first place, at a time when energy is at a premium. Given such fantastic losses, the parent company might not have the resources to make a second go of it, particularly since they'd know the second force would have to be even better armed. Other companies might or might not have the resources. If they had them, they might decide to search other planets instead of risking Pandora again. Presumably in an age when we can travel the universe, other planets with resources have been discovered.

TL;DR: The Na'avi obviously could not destroy the combined might of the human race. Their resistance might well have dissuaded future visitation attempts, however, which is certainly a win for them. Keep in mind that a porcupine doesn't have to defeat a dog, it just has to make its attack too costly.

They were able to win by calling on the fauna of the region to save them, thanks to their Great White Hope managing to better commune with their nature-goddess than their own pseudo-clergy, and some heroics from human defectors (notice how the indigenous people always need someone from the "white" people to win in these fantasies, but in real life, the white guys win with the help of natives who come over to their side? ).


He didn't commune with their nature-goddess any better than they could. Natiri (or whatever) explained that the goddess doesn't take sides, only protects the balance of life. Presumably, a tribal war ending in four or five Na'avi taking arrows doesn't upset the balance. The destruction of a Home tree, though, and the indiscriminate slaughter of hundreds of natives by something completely alien, probably does.

As to the rest of this paragraph, a continuation of the previous argument, I'll make one more point. The collection of mercenaries and pencil pushers that invaded may not have been sanctioned by the government whatsoever. It's entirely possible that they set out just looking for other worlds with resources. They might have found the planet and not yet been able to tell people back on earth. Even if they did tell people back on earth, the government might not have yet been involved. When they get back with stories of intelligent natives, the government might prohibit further involvement, or limit it, or whatever. Things of this nature are pretty common in sci-fi books.

So, my arguments:

1) Suffering fantastic losses often dissuades companies from pursuing a venture. If this is the case, Na'avi win.

2) An informed government might prohibit the destruction of Na'avi life and culture. Na'avi win.

As it was, with their tiny force and a jury-rigged field expedient bomb, the humans came within seconds of blowing up the main server of their little biological internet. How would the Pandorans stop them if they used a jet bomber with a REAL "daisy-cutter" bomb, or a MOAB or a fuel-air bomb, or a nuke? How would they stop a precision-guided cruise missile? Heck, even as it is, the humans, having a spaceship in orbit, possess the capability of dropping a kinetic-energy weapon on their heads. Does anyone remember the LAST Sigourney Weaver-James Cameron collaboration? With the line: "I say we...nuke the site from orbit." What happened, Jimbo? So busy promoting your laughable anti-Christian documentary that you didn't have time to remember things you knew back when you made good movies, where you would make Bill Paxton look like an ass and kill that freckled chick? These hippies are getting kind of idiotic with their constant insistance that people and corporations are vile and greedy and would do anything at all to make a buck, expect push past their very first setback when their plans are barely thwarted by a plucky idealist with almost no resources. Somehow, the hippies who make movies always believe that is enough to get the corporations to take a hit on their quarterly reports and throw in the towel. In real life, when Livingston disappears exploring Africa, Stanly comes looking for him. When the Zulus slaughter the English at Islanlwana, the English then pile them up like cordwood at Rorke's Drift and go on to win the war. Crazy Horse & Sitting Bull massacre Custer, and end up murdered in virtual captivity. I'm betting a realistic "Avatar 2" wouldn't have nearly so 'happy' an ending as this one.


First, the "bomb from orbit." Why in the world would a transport ship have weapons capabilities? Our space shuttles certainly don't. Maybe this would have been feasible and maybe not, but I don't think it requires much suspension of disbelief to assume "not." And furthermore, it was stated that "a select few humans were allowed to stay." Maybe this means only good guys. Or maybe it includes ten or twenty hostages. Bomb us (just for money, mind you, you're in no danger up there) and you kill your commanders.

Your other argument makes a little more sense. History does indeed show a certain amount of revenge fighting, or whatever. We're not just talking a hit to the quarterly reports, though. There's not a company on earth right now that could send 500ish people + advanced weaponry as far as the moon. Presumably it's easier in the future, but the distance is also far greater. Losing them was, in all probability, completely debilitating. They wouldn't have the money for revenge, and no one else would care. The government might, sure, but they might well protect the Na'avi, too. They're not really a threat, after all, and are probably some of the first aliens ever found.

In summary, the events of this movie aren't as unbelievable as you make them sound. It's not hard to believe that a force of some 5-10 thousand Na'avi + creatures defeated 200 or so mercenaries. Maybe arrows won't go through windows, but they could have dropped rocks in those absurdly exposed rotors. Whatever.

It's also not hard to believe that defeating a force like this could earn the Na'avi peace. Corporations might not have the resources to try again, or governments might prohibit involvement upon learning of what happened. Anyway, you see what I mean? I'm not trying to argue what WOULD have happened, I'm just trying to say "it's not that far fetched."
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"Avatar" discussion thread - 17/12/2009 08:10:04 AM 2259 Views
Innovative world-building sci-fi, dull cliched story - 17/12/2009 01:13:47 PM 940 Views
Agreed for the most part... - 17/12/2009 11:05:27 PM 930 Views
Doesn't that last paragraph describe Star Wars? *NM* - 18/12/2009 03:33:58 AM 498 Views
*snorts* *NM* - 18/12/2009 09:03:05 AM 386 Views
Re: Doesn't that last paragraph describe Star Wars? - 18/12/2009 09:49:23 AM 859 Views
Star Wars had many things. Good characters was not one of them. *NM* - 18/12/2009 09:06:18 PM 395 Views
Re: Star Wars had many things. Good characters was not one of them. - 19/12/2009 02:57:43 AM 828 Views
Avatar is basically Return of the Jedi, at least the part on Endor. But less militarily plausible - 19/12/2009 02:22:35 AM 1047 Views
Watch the movie again. - 19/12/2009 03:08:05 AM 1047 Views
It's a watered-down Dune. *NM* - 21/12/2009 08:41:39 AM 602 Views
What struck me the most about this movie... - 22/12/2009 01:25:00 AM 899 Views
Predictable with a tired & preachy plot. (spoilers) Also, the ending was completely ludicrous. - 19/12/2009 03:02:21 AM 1318 Views
You need help *NM* - 19/12/2009 07:33:52 AM 628 Views
A rebuttal! For the points I disagree with, anyway. - 20/12/2009 05:07:59 AM 893 Views
Re: A rebuttal! For the points I disagree with, anyway. - 21/12/2009 08:48:55 PM 978 Views
It would help if you'd leave my quotes by the arguments, but whatever. - 22/12/2009 10:36:42 AM 878 Views
Heh... - 29/12/2009 11:01:41 PM 848 Views
wow, you really do need help - 21/12/2009 07:23:12 AM 1073 Views
If the bad guy has all the stones and still loses, how heroic were the heroes? - 21/12/2009 08:53:00 PM 910 Views
Wow...you're serious? Really?? - 22/12/2009 04:56:20 PM 840 Views
lol - 22/12/2009 04:59:47 PM 799 Views
That's uncalled for IMO - 25/12/2009 09:04:01 PM 1005 Views
I am pretty sure she refered to the fact that he sheered for the bad guys and wished the Na'vi ill. - 25/12/2009 09:19:32 PM 850 Views
He didn't cheer for them - 26/12/2009 01:05:40 AM 836 Views
...an attitude I always found a bit worrisome, too *NM* - 26/12/2009 11:48:40 AM 506 Views
I tend to agree - 21/12/2009 03:23:54 PM 804 Views
I thought the same things, but... - 25/12/2009 08:29:09 PM 830 Views
A fun time. Predictable, but not in a bad way. Minor Spoilers. - 19/12/2009 03:05:19 AM 809 Views
you said Fern Gully ^_^ - 19/12/2009 09:01:58 PM 838 Views
Spectacular - 19/12/2009 02:54:53 PM 890 Views
A wonder of a movie experience *minor spoilers* - 19/12/2009 08:47:06 PM 931 Views
Very good and fun, but not world-shattering. - 19/12/2009 11:19:26 PM 1131 Views
Has anyone seen this in 3D and not enjoyed it?? - 20/12/2009 06:11:52 PM 924 Views
Cannoli, presumably. *NM* - 20/12/2009 10:41:48 PM 607 Views
Sure make fun of the visually impaired, asshole. - 21/12/2009 08:57:33 PM 887 Views
Yeah, that's totally what I was doing. - 21/12/2009 11:59:26 PM 938 Views
Do you buy them from antique shops? *NM* - 22/12/2009 01:10:12 AM 523 Views
Does this include the new 3D? - 22/12/2009 01:17:07 AM 1027 Views
same here - 22/12/2009 02:59:32 PM 726 Views
I'm tempted to make a joke about the depth of your posts. *NM* - 22/12/2009 04:31:04 AM 412 Views
is that what we are calling tunnel vision these days? *NM* - 24/12/2009 07:04:08 PM 511 Views
Dammit! So much better than mine. *NM* - 26/12/2009 05:19:19 AM 466 Views
Saw it with my family. - 20/12/2009 09:10:56 PM 778 Views
Sci-fi Pocahontas - 21/12/2009 01:12:02 AM 922 Views
My friend and I spent the whole movie - 07/01/2010 12:50:56 AM 741 Views
Oh so you're the kind of movie-goer in the seat behind me... - 07/01/2010 11:20:56 AM 733 Views
No way! - 07/01/2010 03:48:48 PM 653 Views
that you mock at all is incredibly disrespectful - 07/01/2010 05:31:55 PM 829 Views
You're overreacting. - 07/01/2010 06:20:06 PM 790 Views
You said you do it quietly - 07/01/2010 08:18:07 PM 805 Views
Fair enough, fair enough. *NM* - 07/01/2010 08:57:23 PM 531 Views
Except maybe the purist who really needs to be kept in a total sensory deprivation chamber. *NM* - 08/01/2010 10:51:58 PM 430 Views
Nothing's more satisfying that seeing and hearing the crowd around you react like you do - 09/01/2010 01:36:36 PM 713 Views
*NM* - 09/01/2010 03:59:28 PM 464 Views
You should never watch a movie with me. - 10/01/2010 01:23:30 AM 820 Views
There's a gentlebot to see you, says his name is Tom Servo. - 08/01/2010 03:59:34 AM 818 Views
3D IMAX is worth the extra money... - 21/12/2009 08:40:57 AM 877 Views
The only thing I am upset about - 21/12/2009 09:38:17 AM 1045 Views
Oh yeah, that puppy's been selling out like crazy. - 22/12/2009 12:01:18 AM 720 Views
Visually stunning. - 24/12/2009 02:12:42 PM 737 Views
As usual, Hollywood shoves an ideology down peoples' throats. *NM* - 26/12/2009 04:30:20 AM 384 Views
Once they've paid their ten bucks to get in. *NM* - 27/12/2009 04:31:59 AM 465 Views
A good ideology assault doesn't come cheap! *NM* - 28/12/2009 10:03:08 AM 474 Views
$14 evening show with 3D glasses. *NM* - 29/12/2009 07:15:03 AM 581 Views
one point i haven't seen discussed yet.... - 26/12/2009 05:43:05 AM 1008 Views
It stinks!! *NM* - 26/12/2009 05:51:30 AM 606 Views
So, a silly thing I found distracting... - 29/12/2009 07:26:02 AM 873 Views
that caught my eye too - 29/12/2009 07:36:46 AM 783 Views
A silly thing I found distracting was that the aliens were humanoid. *NM* - 29/12/2009 09:48:46 AM 554 Views
Umm you would rather watch non-humanoid aliens? Yeah thats fun *NM* - 29/12/2009 03:29:26 PM 444 Views
*sigh* - 30/12/2009 11:09:16 AM 751 Views
Yes. Yes. - 01/01/2010 08:19:58 AM 811 Views
I have missed you so much on this site. *NM* - 02/01/2010 04:13:56 AM 414 Views
well. it's not necessarily erroneous either. - 30/12/2009 06:28:57 AM 738 Views
See my response to Dark Knight above. *NM* - 30/12/2009 11:11:27 AM 468 Views
ah okay. carry on then *NM* - 30/12/2009 04:44:12 PM 538 Views
Yes. - 03/01/2010 05:08:17 PM 845 Views
I believe she was speaking about their tails. - 07/01/2010 07:37:46 AM 723 Views
If I remember it was the "USB Plug" in their hair. *NM* - 08/01/2010 08:29:38 AM 570 Views
Yep - 08/01/2010 09:33:08 AM 828 Views
*facepalm* yah, that's what i was talking about - 08/01/2010 05:31:33 PM 772 Views
I figured - 08/01/2010 05:50:22 PM 795 Views
Yes, the plot is simple, predictable and ideological - 29/12/2009 07:41:36 AM 760 Views
It was the best movie I've seen in ages. I'm seriously thinking of going to see it again. *NM* - 29/12/2009 12:20:11 PM 617 Views
We definitely will. - 29/12/2009 03:30:07 PM 793 Views
Going again tomorrow. *NM* - 02/01/2010 05:14:53 PM 600 Views
Project 880: The Avatar that might have been - 31/12/2009 10:30:21 AM 1066 Views
That is very interesting. - 31/12/2009 01:25:19 PM 733 Views
yeah - 02/01/2010 01:56:15 PM 846 Views
i think that would be interesting to see - 31/12/2009 04:29:19 PM 860 Views
Avatar is/was gonna make a pile of money anyways. - 31/12/2009 08:30:34 PM 1011 Views
Re: I hated the 3-D effect. It was horrible. - 10/01/2010 09:39:25 AM 785 Views
Stephen Colbert on Avatar - 15/01/2010 03:18:29 AM 631 Views
I liked it even better the 2nd time. *Spoilers* - 16/01/2010 12:23:50 AM 743 Views
Yeah, I really liked the music. *NM* - 16/01/2010 06:04:55 AM 582 Views
It just took the double at the Golden Globes. - 18/01/2010 04:04:08 AM 867 Views
Ok, wow, I didn't expect that to happen. *NM* - 18/01/2010 08:59:51 AM 392 Views
I can't say I'm surprised it did. Not that I agree with it. *NM* - 18/01/2010 07:37:08 PM 347 Views
Okay I bit the bullet and went to see it - 18/01/2010 11:56:28 PM 763 Views
I always forget that I saw movies in 3D. - 19/01/2010 01:11:05 AM 847 Views

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