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Some are more literal, while some are more symbolic Etzel Send a noteboard - 09/06/2010 10:51:09 AM
IRRC, the headsman isn't one of the ways the Seanchan put people to death. They would make Egwene damane anyway, not kill her. They already have an Amyrlin Seat prisoner, and Brandon all but confirmed she's been leashed (well, she was.. but that the Seanchan have no plan to kill her, I mean).


As said, the Seanchan executed the Mistress of the Ships by beheading. Elaida was captured & leashed without the knowledge that she is the Amyrlin. This could be different, if the Seanchan attack the WT and want to make an example by executing its ruler. One damane more or less won't matter, if the AS are defeated. Of course, we also often saw Seanchan killing channelers, if they needed to (e.g. during the WT raid).

There likely won't be an headsman involved for real either, there's always something important in the dreams that is wholly symbolic (the cliff in the dreams about Perrin, the lamp and ravens in the one about the Seanchan attack, the blindness of Rand in the wolfdream etc.). The imagery suggests capital punishment, but in a more general way it can simply be mortal danger, the fact the blade is approaching in slow-motion could mean she won't be facing instant death, but a growing/approaching threat. Egwene is also restrained/captive. She cannot stop the axe herself.


Yeah, that is possible.

In any case, bound at the block and the axe falling toward her head could symbolize a death threat approaching, which Egwene is incapable of stopping herself. She must hope for those who are running to her. Those who run may have discovered the woman Egwene is with is Mesaana. They know Egwene is alone with that woman and so is in mortal danger, especially that Egwene may trust that woman, and not realise her danger until it's too late. The fact she's bound to the block may symbolize the third Oath, that will prevent her to strike unless she's convinced this woman is BA or Forsaken. Those who run to her may, or not, need her warder to locate her. If Egwene is simply in her study with Mesaana, locating her may not even be an issue.


The question is then, who could learn that Mesaana (as some fake AS) is threatening Egwene in the WT and come to save her? Before TGS, I thought that Semirhage might give Rand that information. Egwene herself might figure out Mesaana's identity eventually, but it seems doubtful that she would get the chance to tell it someone, e.g. via TAR. A candidate to reveal Mesaana's identity might be Alviarin, if she is somehow captured by the Lightside.

At this point this most likely is linked to a revenge by Mesaana, or by BA (Mesaana being a lot more likely). We've yet to see in how much trouble the "Verin/Egwene fiasco" has landed Alviarin and/or Mesaana with SH/Moridin. Shaidar Haran certainly won't be pleased, he had punished Mesaana before for wasting the BA, and ordered Alviarin to find those hunting the BA. Mesaana may not even have chosen to remain around. She may have been forced to by Shaidar Haran, when (if) Alviarin reported to him abou the purge and was ordered to warn the BA and flee. Mesaana herself may have been ordered to stay and find an opportunity to kill Egwene at the right time, when TG starts, for instance. This would disorganize the Tower at a very bad moment.


I agree.

In any case, Gawyn (possibly it's Gawyn) running to her suggests to me that when Egwene will be in danger for her life, he'll be able to sense it, much like Birgitte and Elayne. This speaks of them being bonded by that time (which could mean it won't be early in TOM, might even happen during TG). It may not be Gawyn who's able to deal with the threat Egwene is under (especially if it's Mesaana). He may be leading to her those who can save her. Notice Egwene seems to think so. She calls her potential saviour "they", not "he".


Yes.

But that possibility aside, I really don't think there's enough story left for Egwene to be captured by the Seanchan (and certainly not for some big spectacular rescue....) - nor certainly for any story line in which Egwene would be held accountable for crimes under Tower Law.


Yeah, the timing is an issue. On the other hand, we know from her Dreams that Egwene has to come together with the Seanchan yet.

Notice that Brandon said this Dream could still happen. Interesting, in the context that Dreams are just probable and not certain like Foretelling and Viewings. There must be one or two in the lot that won't happen. I don't think it will be this one that fails, but we never know.


As I understand BS, the danger of that happening will definitely come yet, the question is just if Egwene will be killed, or if the rescue will come in time.

I don't think this dream is connected to the one with "Gawyn's choice". IMO Gawyn's choice was fulfilled long ago in Cairhien. The choice was between his duty and Egwene. He chose Egwene. Had he chosen his duty, she fell in Galina's hands...


Could be.

As for the headsman... I'm pretty convinced Jordan chose that symbolism because of its ambiguity, because beside what it will represent for real, it could fool those who intepret the Dreams too literally into believing Egwene would face justice once captured by Elaida. It worked. The theories were all over the place about how Elaida would send Egwene to headsman in TGS, with the variants that the Seanchan would capture her in the attack and kill her as a runaway damane.

But the main thing about Dreams is "what you see in the dream" is very rarely "what you get in reality."


Yeah.

One last point: there's is actually a connection between "justice" and Mesaana. During the WOS, she had "Mesaana's Children" capture people in charge, scholars etc., put them on trial and execute them. The dream may be a reference to Mesaana's idea of justice... making Egwene pay for ruining all her plans.


Could be, though I think normally the threats of a Forsaken are more monstrous represented in Egwene's Dreams.
This message last edited by Etzel on 09/06/2010 at 11:03:10 AM
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Egwene's future Etzel - 08/06/2010 10:10:28 AM 1218 Views
The headsman's axe might also be merely metaphorical. *NM* RandAllThor - 08/06/2010 11:25:52 AM 189 Views
Yes, could be... Etzel - 08/06/2010 01:36:08 PM 393 Views
I've wondered if Egwene is "The Andoran Candidate" newyorkersedai - 08/06/2010 04:07:18 PM 459 Views
I rather think Aran'gar was a failure... Etzel - 09/06/2010 10:56:42 AM 308 Views
Finally found a quote to redeem the Forsaken a bit newyorkersedai - 09/06/2010 03:53:37 PM 310 Views
Yeah, it's a bit strange... Etzel - 09/06/2010 04:09:48 PM 298 Views
Agreed newyorkersedai - 09/06/2010 04:26:27 PM 274 Views
I think the DO's power is generated off of Chaos darius_sedai - 10/06/2010 01:21:56 PM 270 Views
Re: Yeah, it's a bit strange... DomA - 09/06/2010 07:15:41 PM 272 Views
That is obvious, but... Etzel - 09/06/2010 08:25:16 PM 241 Views
Re: That is obvious, but... DomA - 10/06/2010 05:13:50 PM 384 Views
More thoughts in defense of this idea newyorkersedai - 09/06/2010 10:30:14 PM 265 Views
I think Aran'gar rather planned... Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:37:35 AM 294 Views
Re: More thoughts in defense of this idea darius_sedai - 10/06/2010 01:26:54 PM 290 Views
Aran'gar certainly isn't Taim Etzel - 10/06/2010 02:15:40 PM 267 Views
It's not my theory... I do think it would be hilarious though darius_sedai - 10/06/2010 02:44:57 PM 275 Views
Implausible newyorkersedai - 10/06/2010 02:50:51 PM 263 Views
I mean... Etzel - 10/06/2010 03:20:41 PM 230 Views
I still think yet another clue speaks loudly that Taim is a real Forsaken newyorkersedai - 10/06/2010 04:04:06 PM 259 Views
RJ explained Taim's look at the beginning of LoC Etzel - 10/06/2010 04:25:54 PM 350 Views
Personally I think RJ was full of sh*t with that comment darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 01:20:25 PM 266 Views
Indeed Sidious - 12/06/2010 08:27:16 AM 266 Views
Exactly! darius_sedai - 12/06/2010 01:02:53 PM 253 Views
Re: I still think yet another clue speaks loudly that Taim is a real Forsaken DomA - 10/06/2010 07:58:42 PM 328 Views
Re: I mean... darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 01:23:28 PM 227 Views
Re: Implausible DomA - 10/06/2010 06:44:01 PM 295 Views
Mesaana's more likely. There just isn't enough time for it to be the Seanchan, imo *NM* Deadsy - 08/06/2010 08:31:07 PM 124 Views
On the other hand, we know that Egwene has to meet Seanchan yet. *NM* Etzel - 09/06/2010 10:51:37 AM 124 Views
In book time, she'll probably be seeing Seta (and possibly Egeanin) in a couple hours Deadsy - 09/06/2010 11:09:08 AM 272 Views
They are in Caemlyn now... Etzel - 09/06/2010 11:45:02 AM 335 Views
I didn't say it was important Deadsy - 09/06/2010 11:56:44 AM 265 Views
I mean... Etzel - 09/06/2010 02:54:33 PM 307 Views
not going to happen Deadsy - 09/06/2010 09:10:16 PM 271 Views
Well, I agree that Egwene won't die... Etzel - 09/06/2010 09:29:32 PM 279 Views
Ya, I could see that *NM* Deadsy - 09/06/2010 09:50:58 PM 109 Views
well it could shut Romanda and Lelaine up darius_sedai - 10/06/2010 01:28:51 PM 282 Views
I agree,,, DomA - 10/06/2010 06:17:59 PM 296 Views
Egwene's dreams are symbolic DomA - 09/06/2010 01:05:24 AM 559 Views
one little caveat newyorkersedai - 09/06/2010 01:16:09 AM 285 Views
But... Etzel - 09/06/2010 11:13:24 AM 245 Views
Re: But... newyorkersedai - 09/06/2010 04:00:05 PM 268 Views
Yeah... Etzel - 09/06/2010 04:12:11 PM 269 Views
Some are more literal, while some are more symbolic Etzel - 09/06/2010 10:51:09 AM 270 Views
Re: Some are more literal, while some are more symbolic DomA - 09/06/2010 06:54:14 PM 312 Views
As you said... Etzel - 09/06/2010 08:33:13 PM 234 Views
Re: As you said... newyorkersedai - 10/06/2010 12:23:02 AM 278 Views
I disagree Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:25:13 AM 281 Views
And they were Cabriana's best friends. Aran'gar killed them to cover her tracks darius_sedai - 10/06/2010 01:48:13 PM 298 Views
Re: And they were Cabriana's best friends. Aran'gar killed them to cover her tracks DomA - 10/06/2010 11:02:36 PM 313 Views
I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 02:29:22 AM 263 Views
Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too DomA - 11/06/2010 01:33:27 PM 297 Views
Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 02:28:44 PM 282 Views
Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too DomA - 11/06/2010 03:33:05 PM 465 Views
we're going to have to agree to disagree here darius_sedai - 12/06/2010 01:07:56 PM 257 Views
Found another relevant quote - Arangar wouldn't've needed Graendal's contacts in the AoL newyorkersedai - 11/06/2010 02:42:02 PM 301 Views
Re: As you said... DomA - 10/06/2010 09:45:05 PM 295 Views
Re: As you said... DomA - 10/06/2010 08:32:12 PM 265 Views
Re: As you said... Etzel - 10/06/2010 09:14:25 PM 231 Views
Re: As you said... DomA - 10/06/2010 11:40:52 PM 284 Views
So... Etzel - 11/06/2010 08:46:41 AM 295 Views
Re: So... DomA - 11/06/2010 02:37:28 PM 257 Views
as I just noted above newyorkersedai - 11/06/2010 03:26:21 PM 271 Views
Re: as I just noted above DomA - 11/06/2010 05:00:23 PM 288 Views
Well Etzel - 13/06/2010 10:58:04 AM 229 Views
LOL Sidious - 11/06/2010 09:28:28 AM 207 Views
I agree Etzel - 11/06/2010 10:13:47 AM 267 Views
Re: I agree Sidious - 12/06/2010 08:31:04 AM 299 Views
"I think" Etzel - 12/06/2010 11:56:19 AM 205 Views
Nesta was impaled on a stake and her head put on a spike for rebellion darius_sedai - 10/06/2010 01:44:53 PM 332 Views
A new bit by BS Etzel - 22/06/2010 01:30:27 PM 279 Views
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