Re: Some are more literal, while some are more symbolic
DomA Send a noteboard - 09/06/2010 06:54:14 PM
As said, the Seanchan executed the Mistress of the Ships by beheading.
I remember they exposed the heads of all criminals on poles, but it's not been explicitely mentionned that they executed these criminals by beheading.
The symbol of Imperial justice is an axe tied with a white cord, and the white cord is the one with which they strangle criminals among the Blood, so possibly they do behead the rest.
I still don't think they would have the Amyrlin Seat executed, though.
Elaida was captured & leashed without the knowledge that she is the Amyrlin. This could be different, if the Seanchan attack the WT and want to make an example by executing its ruler.
That would be recognizing her as a ruler. In their eyes she's just another marath'damane and nothing special. Making a show of executing her would give her an importance she doesn't have in their eyes. They believe the OP makes the AS like they are. They don't punish that, they leash. They'll be much happier parading the former Amyrlin as a damane, stripped of her name, and show everyone how they've tamed her, just like Suroth was pleased of parading the former Panarch around as da'covale.
Brandon mutters puzzling hints that Elaida might still be a damane in the sequels. I don't make much of those, however - he may well have been misundestood. It seems really curious to me he would have given any hint that the damane culture will survive the finale.
About the Seanchan... I don't expect a whole lot of Seanchan stuff in the next book (not a lot of the main story line with Tuon, at least - there may be other developments we don't know about, in northern Altara for instance, or Illian). A big chunk of TOM will be devoted to the same timeline as TGS. It's only big mid-book at the earliest (depends how much happens in Elayne's, Perrin's and Mat's story lines before it catches up to Rand's and Egwene's) that things should move forward again. IMO, much of what "moves forward" will be devoted to building up to the big climax that reunites the characters. I really don't know if Tuon will be involved in this, though. Brandon sometime spoke generally, but once or twice he spoke of the original group: Egwene, Nynaeve, Thom, Moiraine, Rand, Perrin, Mat, Min. Elayne can be added to that, Aviendha I guess too, and maybe Loial. Lan should be there, but is very unlikely to be included.
I think either the Seanchan will decide to raid the BT next, in which case they'll likely be involved in the climax of TOM and it's likely then all factions of the Light will have to choose their side - together against the Shadow or apart, or during TOM Tuon's army will be too busy modifying their tactics to include Travelling and getting ready for the next step in their campaign, in which case the next big Light vs. Seanchgan confrontation, the one that will end with Egwene and Tuon having to make a decision to ally or not, will happen in AMOL, during TG.
I don't think there's time for another big TV/Seanchan battle in TOM, unless they end up facing one another because they both attack the BT at the end of the book.
The question is then, who could learn that Mesaana (as some fake AS) is threatening Egwene in the WT and come to save her? Before TGS, I thought that Semirhage might give Rand that information. Egwene herself might figure out Mesaana's identity eventually, but it seems doubtful that she would get the chance to tell it someone, e.g. via TAR. A candidate to reveal Mesaana's identity might be Alviarin, if she is somehow captured by the Lightside.
The person who knows the most about Forsaken infiltrated near Egwene is Siuan, who's watched Halima going for a long time. She's good with "mysteries" as well, and her knowledge of the WT and the sisters is very thorough.
I'm pretty sure it's Siuan who will take it upon herself (not following Egwene's orders) to find out who Mesaana is, especially now that Egwene has in effect freed her of her previous responsabilities. That Forsaken in the Tower is most likely responsible for her own downfall too, so for Siuan there's something personal about it.
For the rest, I see what RJ has set up, and (though I know you don't agree), I'm pretty convinced the Aran'gar-Graendal alliance is very relevant.
I think we will find out Mesaana was behind Aran'gar's downfall. It's her who got Anayia and Kairen killed to bring attention to Halima. It's also her who got Moria (a BA) to come up with the idea of an alliance with the BT against the Forsaken. And I think it was also her who gave Nacelle (yet another BA) a weave to detect saidin. The BT alliance is something else, it's a mean to have the BA join Taim's faction in plain sight, I think, and a mean to take the initiative from Rand. After the Cleansing, this alliance was sure to come sooner or later, and Rand's forces had already started linking again. Better for the Shadow to take the initiative, and by having Taim in charge, control this alliance (which eventually would be betrayed, no doubt). I think Moridin knows and condoned this, but didn't know of Mesaana's efforts to make Aran'gar go away.
Aran'gar suspected nothing, but in KOD she's finally learned Mesaana was in the Tower, and thought she was in charge of everything AS, thought she could give Aran'gar orders as if she were her lackey. Aran'gar smiled through it all, thinking it would be wonderful if she could tear the trio apart...
I think with the Nacelle thing, Aran'gar puzzled out Mesaana was behind her downfall, and Graendal (in her last scene in the series, and probably her only one in TOM) will tell her who Mesaana is in the Tower. Aran'gar will seek revenge by finding ways to lead Egwene's people to Mesaana.
(I think when Aran'gar tells her what Mesaana has done, Graendal will puzzle out, wrong or right, where Demandred is. She may take actions to learn more - like planning to get spies at the BT, but nothing will come of it because Graendal will die a few weeks later)
And Aran'gar kept Delana with her for a reason. Delana is fairly useless, except she knows the Tower and the sisters really well. Aran'gar doesn't. She was also a friend of Siuan. Of course, Delana can't be Delana anymore, but she knows the Tower and could re infiltrate it with a MOM.
I think Aran'gar may also interfere so Egwene's embassy never goes to Taim, because Mesaana appeared to want that.
I get the feeling one way or another, this embassy will end up going to Logain instead, though I'm not convinced Aran'gar will have anything to do with that. It may well be Logain, or one of his men, who shows up in Caemlyn and convinces the embassy to come to him. Logain must be furious Rand not only rejected his accusations about Taim out of hand, but also sent Egwene's people to him without even a warning to be cautious of this man. Letting the AS "ally" with a DF is a disastrous idea, and he owes a debt to Egwene. If Logain doesn't decide he must take things in his own hands by himself, Gabrelle/Toveine may very well convince him that he must.
I think toward the end of the book, Logain and Egwene will have allied, and decided they must destroy Taim and the BA while they're still in one place.
I think Tsumata Rath might step up and volunteer the whole Red Ajah for the mission.
On the other hand, we know from her Dreams that Egwene has to come together with the Seanchan yet.
We do. On the other hand, nothing in that dream suggests battle. Egwene is incapable of reaching the top, hidden by clouds. A Seanchan comes and tells her together they can reach the top. What would they see together above the clouds? They'd see... the Light. Egwene refused flat out any idea of allying with a Seanchan and jumped out of the Dream. She refused to accept what the Wheel was showing her, and the dream ended. She never saw what this lead to.
Egwene has seen she was wrong to fight Elaida, that she had to reunite the Tower another way. She's yet to see she can't fight the Seanchan either, that even these most hated foes will need to be allies in the Last Battle. I think this is what this dream was about. I think Egwene will have this dream, or another very similar again. And this time, she will have to accept to see it to the end, not jump out of it as she did the last time.
As I understand BS, the danger of that happening will definitely come yet, the question is just if Egwene will be killed, or if the rescue will come in time.
He merely confirmed this dream isn't fulfilled, and what it shows could still happen. Not will, but could.
The whole thing about him smiling when someone mentionned Gawyn etc. is meaningless. I saw one of his Q&A, that's basically just his "RAFO" smile. He did that nearly every time someone tried to get him to say too much. One example: someone asked him if Perrin and Mat were very close at the end of KOD. He said yes, and Galad was too. Then the person said they'll meet in TGS then, and Brandon just smiled mysteriously and repeated they were all very close at the end of KOD.
Could be, though I think normally the threats of a Forsaken are more monstrous represented in Egwene's Dreams.
I think RJ contrived this one mostly because he wanted us to first misinterpret it as Elaida's upcoming justice. It wasn't the only red herring, he notably had Elaida have dreams of what she'd do to Egwene and the Hall once she had them in her hands. Of course, there was a lot of red herrings that Egwene would end up facing the headsman in TGS itself. She came very close, actually, if Elaida had had her way. For a while, she was really in mortal danger. I initially thought it came close enough to fulfill the Dream (the "they" being the Sitters who worked to stop Elaida from putting her on trial for being a DF), but it turns out it's not that and there's more to come.
This message last edited by DomA on 09/06/2010 at 06:54:36 PM
Egwene's future
08/06/2010 10:10:28 AM
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I've wondered if Egwene is "The Andoran Candidate"
08/06/2010 04:07:18 PM
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I rather think Aran'gar was a failure...
09/06/2010 10:56:42 AM
- 271 Views
Finally found a quote to redeem the Forsaken a bit
09/06/2010 03:53:37 PM
- 266 Views
Yeah, it's a bit strange...
09/06/2010 04:09:48 PM
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Re: Yeah, it's a bit strange...
09/06/2010 07:15:41 PM
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More thoughts in defense of this idea
09/06/2010 10:30:14 PM
- 224 Views
Re: More thoughts in defense of this idea
10/06/2010 01:26:54 PM
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Aran'gar certainly isn't Taim
10/06/2010 02:15:40 PM
- 219 Views
Implausible
10/06/2010 02:50:51 PM
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I mean...
10/06/2010 03:20:41 PM
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I still think yet another clue speaks loudly that Taim is a real Forsaken
10/06/2010 04:04:06 PM
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RJ explained Taim's look at the beginning of LoC
10/06/2010 04:25:54 PM
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Re: I still think yet another clue speaks loudly that Taim is a real Forsaken
10/06/2010 07:58:42 PM
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Mesaana's more likely. There just isn't enough time for it to be the Seanchan, imo *NM*
08/06/2010 08:31:07 PM
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On the other hand, we know that Egwene has to meet Seanchan yet. *NM*
09/06/2010 10:51:37 AM
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In book time, she'll probably be seeing Seta (and possibly Egeanin) in a couple hours
09/06/2010 11:09:08 AM
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They are in Caemlyn now...
09/06/2010 11:45:02 AM
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I didn't say it was important
09/06/2010 11:56:44 AM
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I mean...
09/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
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not going to happen
09/06/2010 09:10:16 PM
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Egwene's dreams are symbolic
09/06/2010 01:05:24 AM
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Some are more literal, while some are more symbolic
09/06/2010 10:51:09 AM
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Re: Some are more literal, while some are more symbolic
09/06/2010 06:54:14 PM
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As you said...
09/06/2010 08:33:13 PM
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Re: As you said...
10/06/2010 12:23:02 AM
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And they were Cabriana's best friends. Aran'gar killed them to cover her tracks
10/06/2010 01:48:13 PM
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Re: And they were Cabriana's best friends. Aran'gar killed them to cover her tracks
10/06/2010 11:02:36 PM
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I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too
11/06/2010 02:29:22 AM
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Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too
11/06/2010 01:33:27 PM
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Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too
11/06/2010 02:28:44 PM
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Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too
11/06/2010 03:33:05 PM
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Found another relevant quote - Arangar wouldn't've needed Graendal's contacts in the AoL
11/06/2010 02:42:02 PM
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Re: As you said...
10/06/2010 08:32:12 PM
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Re: As you said...
10/06/2010 09:14:25 PM
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Re: As you said...
10/06/2010 11:40:52 PM
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So...
11/06/2010 08:46:41 AM
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Re: So...
11/06/2010 02:37:28 PM
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Nesta was impaled on a stake and her head put on a spike for rebellion
10/06/2010 01:44:53 PM
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