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Here's another stumper for these things, but first newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 10/06/2010 12:08:41 AM
Let me say that the DO's motives are most likely found in a Johnny Cash song - that line about shooting a man "just to watch him die." That seems to be the most probable goal - it just wants to end everything (a) because it can and (b) as some form of self-validation. This makes the most sense if the DO is simply blocked from the Pattern's existence, but has ways of amusing itself outside of the WoT's existence. It just wants to throw rocks at the pretty glass house...

But the stumper I've always had is : Why does the Creator create the DO in the first place? Or allow it to continue existing?

But what if that's not the case? If the DO and Creator were two individuals of unequal power that existed when nothing else did, this makes sense. The Creator makes everything, and one of the first jobs is to shut the DO out - either keeping it in the DO's "own" reality, or actually constraining it altogether. The Creator didn't like (or wasn't satisfied with) what existed - itself, the DO, and nothing - so it created a reality that was outside those 3 things. The DO doesn't like being left out of the party, and decides to destroy it.

If the Creator and DO were rival individuals/entities before everything existed, it seems that the DO lost bigtime. So the Creator was powerful enough to make everything, but couldn't finish the job once it won? Doing so wouldn't necessarily destroy creation, because the Creator was making creation at the same time, and the rules of reality don't require a creator...

But does it make any sense that RJ's Creator actually *made* the DO? Why devise a universe while simultaneously creating a vile thing that wants to destroy all your work? At least in the Tolkien series, the most divine entities there actually needed the bad guys to help create some mystical symphony or some such....

Or is the answer that the DO is actually some entity that's totally outside of *the Creator's* dimension, and wants to somehow screw it up? It is possible that some things in existence are purely outside of the Creator's works (which include TaR and the alterna-worlds from the Portal Stones). Then the DO just wants to exert its evil when it a new place.

The scariest option is one that kind of fits the symbolism of the Aes Sedai symbol in WoT : does the Creator comprise "everything in existence?" If the Creator actually IS "everything," then the Creator and the DO may be the same entity, with two different and opposite personalities and goals. One is benevolent and wants to create/observe a timeless universe, a universe that repeats the same patterns in different ways endlessly. The other personality is malevolent and wants the opposite - endless nothing. The question is about two equal but opposing powers that drive the universe (sound familiar?) - yet I can't see how one could subjugate the other. So if the Creator is actually composed of both a creator and a dark one, then perhaps it keeps itself going by playing games with itself.

What makes the most sense, in some ways, is if the DO is actually the personality and power of the "nothingness" that existed before the Creator Created. Then it would make sense that the DO wants to undo the created universe and go back to the way things were - to wit, the DO encompassing everything with its nothingness.

I had this same problem, on a much more personal level, back when I ascribed to Catholicism. I was shocked that I was supposed to believe that any angel could credibly challenge a God with the absolute powers of creation and fore-knowledge.

It made less sense that that God would seal this angel in some prison instead of destroying it. Or that God would actually allow that angel to somehow interfere with its work, despite locking it away. "I send you to a pit of fire, you little punk! But I've somehow made it so you can sneak out of there to mess with my toys/creations..."

None of this made the slightest bit of sense. So I had to wonder if God actually wanted that angel to mess with the world. But then I had to ask "why?" Catholicism tells you that "god's plan is unknowable" and to just accept that; still, I always wondered if that God could've been decent enough to create an evil that doesn't propagate (a) sexual assault, (b) abuse and murder of children and domesticated animals, and (c) torture. I'll take assault & battery, theft offenses, and shark attacks, but please leave the other three out of existence.

Perhaps a whole ton of writers simply take some of the paradoxes of this biblical story into their own work. Or maybe it's a lot easier to rely on circumstances that are so "familiar" to a significant portion of the world population. It sounds way easier writing a variation on a biblical theme than giving a detailed and "new" explanation of what evil is, what it wants, and why it's doing what it's doing.
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The Dark One vs. the Creator - 09/06/2010 09:54:41 PM 1085 Views
What I never understand in any fantasy series... - 09/06/2010 10:22:13 PM 717 Views
utter evil always seems a bit shallow in the end - 09/06/2010 11:16:59 PM 560 Views
Especially if you're immortal - 10/06/2010 03:47:26 AM 535 Views
Here's another stumper for these things, but first - 10/06/2010 12:08:41 AM 605 Views
Without discussing theodicy (that's a CMB sort of discussion)... - 10/06/2010 03:53:31 AM 907 Views
I don't think RJ shows a balanced power system - 10/06/2010 12:23:03 PM 527 Views
It's name is the Creator, maby it's unable to destroy the DO? *NM* - 15/06/2010 09:02:12 AM 215 Views
I think I get the goal of the one in WoT though. *NM* - 10/06/2010 12:11:57 AM 224 Views
It's like Aerosmith said... - 10/06/2010 01:36:17 AM 518 Views
But Shai'tan is operating as though it's about the goal, not the journey. *NM* - 10/06/2010 03:55:27 AM 240 Views
That is his thought... - 11/06/2010 01:54:42 AM 456 Views
I agree that Shaitan must've been behind the "Crying/Crazy/Amazin'" songs *NM* - 10/06/2010 03:25:26 PM 299 Views
that's kind of the point... - 10/06/2010 04:19:30 AM 518 Views
This. - 10/06/2010 04:40:34 AM 533 Views
Exactly. I've been saying this for quite a while - 10/06/2010 10:29:01 PM 465 Views
I'll give this a go... - 10/06/2010 05:19:49 AM 580 Views
destroy the circular nature of the wheel, instead of the wheel - 11/06/2010 05:04:41 PM 452 Views
I don't agree with many of these people - I think the bad guys have plausible agendas - 10/06/2010 08:45:52 AM 502 Views
Personally I think the Wheel is the DOs prison not just an "eyesore" - 10/06/2010 12:29:13 PM 459 Views
Probably a chicken and egg scenario - 10/06/2010 03:29:34 PM 433 Views
probably! - 11/06/2010 02:18:29 AM 452 Views
As others said... - 10/06/2010 08:46:46 AM 462 Views
It could be that Dark One's goal is own death - 10/06/2010 02:18:13 AM 495 Views
Then why would he fight so hard? - 10/06/2010 03:54:55 AM 583 Views
I like this idea... - 10/06/2010 08:47:52 AM 504 Views
I don't think he can die - 10/06/2010 08:57:05 AM 522 Views
Well... - 10/06/2010 04:32:45 AM 569 Views
So... - 10/06/2010 08:49:48 AM 553 Views
Seems unlikely to me. - 10/06/2010 06:09:46 PM 543 Views
Re: Well... - 10/06/2010 11:00:07 PM 466 Views
Re: Well... - 11/06/2010 12:12:55 AM 481 Views
Re: Well... - 10/06/2010 11:10:55 PM 440 Views
Re: Well... - 11/06/2010 12:20:28 AM 445 Views
Re: Well... - 11/06/2010 01:34:33 AM 434 Views
Okay. - 11/06/2010 05:11:26 AM 416 Views
Re: Okay. - 11/06/2010 05:25:08 AM 477 Views
Oh, no. - 11/06/2010 06:26:55 AM 481 Views
OK - I get it! - 11/06/2010 04:45:49 PM 423 Views

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