Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 11/06/2010 02:28:44 PM
Aran'gar isn't the most clever Forsaken, but she's no idiot either, and her skills are rooted in how to survive among criminals, and on the other side she's an Historian, formed in puzzling out how foreign systems work. She wouldn't have survived long among the Forsaken, or seedy gangs, if she were an idiot. Graendal, Lanfear or Demandred would have had her on toast for breakfast in the WOS if she was the moron you think she is. Beware of the views of other Chosen about her: scientists like Osan'gar tend to think people in humanities are idiots, while Demandred is a man of the system, used to despise the "lower classes".
Aran'gar's whole approach to the Rebellion would have been very different had she been aware that Mesaana controlled the other side, and forcibly had BA pawns among the Rebels - and worse, Mesaana knew about Aran'gar being near Egwene, which gave her a massive advantage over Aran'gar. And Demandred is used to think strategically, and to find ways to undermine an enemy this way.
Aran'gar would have been far more on her guard, and vicious/devious, had she known she faced the trio on the other side. She had been assigned this task by Shaidar Haran in person, she didn't know she had competition.
She has done a fair job blocking the system using Delana to burden the Hall with stupid and divisive proposals (notably that ended up with Lelaine and Romanda fighting over the BA, among other things Delana managed to divide these two and others over), but had not foreseen that Egwene would use the rivalries in the Hall to her own ends, and manage to grab power, after which Aran'gar could do not much, as Egwene was terribly impermeable to influence from Delana and Sheriam. Aran'gar had no delusion that Egwene was just a figurehead, unlike Mesaana.
The reasonning is perfectly valid whether Mesaana had the two women linked to Halima via Cabriana killed, or Aran'gar really killed them.
I mean, if Mesaana had the women killed, her motive was to generate exactly the sort of reasoning these sisters came up with, that Anayia and Kairen were not random targets, and there's a link between them, and this link was that they form a trio of close friends with Cabriana. Eventually, some would reason out that Halima was the common link between these three women, and they're all dead - and this is suspicious - and start keeping an eye on her to see which men in the camp she was tied to.
If Aran'gar killed them however, these quotes highlight how stupid it was for her to kill just these two women instead of adding one or two random victims to hide her tracks. It shows Romanda is not the only one who made a connection between the victims, and it wasn't necessary to know of the connection between the three to theorize there must be a connection between the victims, that they were not random. Romanda found out what the connection was, whereas these Grays just puzzled out there must be one. That suggests in the Blue, the "coincidence" that Kairen and Anayia were very close friends, and both friends to another woman who died a few months ago, was fairly transparent. They just didn't see how this could be connected to a male channeller. We know the Blues were investigating: Lelaine told Nisao to back off the Blue's affairs. This was misinterpreted as Lelaine being BA by many, but Lelaine isn't BA.
I don't understand what you're getting at. Kairen was part of the embassy to Rand. But how is this relevant to anything?
Aran'gar was aware that the Rebels were about to get in contact with Asha'man, and couldn't predict Rand wouldn't get involved in this project of alliance between his men and the AS. Most likely he would have, or maybe not but it's because Taim is a traitor and not acting as the leader of the BT normally would have, transmitting this offer from the AS to the Dragon for approval. It wasn't a good time to commit murders using saidin, let alone kill women tied to her via Cabriana. Halima jeopardized her own safety doing this, and the risk was obvious.
Aran'gar's whole approach to the Rebellion would have been very different had she been aware that Mesaana controlled the other side, and forcibly had BA pawns among the Rebels - and worse, Mesaana knew about Aran'gar being near Egwene, which gave her a massive advantage over Aran'gar. And Demandred is used to think strategically, and to find ways to undermine an enemy this way.
Aran'gar would have been far more on her guard, and vicious/devious, had she known she faced the trio on the other side. She had been assigned this task by Shaidar Haran in person, she didn't know she had competition.
She has done a fair job blocking the system using Delana to burden the Hall with stupid and divisive proposals (notably that ended up with Lelaine and Romanda fighting over the BA, among other things Delana managed to divide these two and others over), but had not foreseen that Egwene would use the rivalries in the Hall to her own ends, and manage to grab power, after which Aran'gar could do not much, as Egwene was terribly impermeable to influence from Delana and Sheriam. Aran'gar had no delusion that Egwene was just a figurehead, unlike Mesaana.
the only thing that Aran'gar would know for certain that connects Anaiya and Kairen is Cabriana ... she has no clue that Anaiya or Kairen had any contact with Rand.
The reasonning is perfectly valid whether Mesaana had the two women linked to Halima via Cabriana killed, or Aran'gar really killed them.
I mean, if Mesaana had the women killed, her motive was to generate exactly the sort of reasoning these sisters came up with, that Anayia and Kairen were not random targets, and there's a link between them, and this link was that they form a trio of close friends with Cabriana. Eventually, some would reason out that Halima was the common link between these three women, and they're all dead - and this is suspicious - and start keeping an eye on her to see which men in the camp she was tied to.
If Aran'gar killed them however, these quotes highlight how stupid it was for her to kill just these two women instead of adding one or two random victims to hide her tracks. It shows Romanda is not the only one who made a connection between the victims, and it wasn't necessary to know of the connection between the three to theorize there must be a connection between the victims, that they were not random. Romanda found out what the connection was, whereas these Grays just puzzled out there must be one. That suggests in the Blue, the "coincidence" that Kairen and Anayia were very close friends, and both friends to another woman who died a few months ago, was fairly transparent. They just didn't see how this could be connected to a male channeller. We know the Blues were investigating: Lelaine told Nisao to back off the Blue's affairs. This was misinterpreted as Lelaine being BA by many, but Lelaine isn't BA.
she has no clue that Anaiya or Kairen had any contact with Rand.
I don't understand what you're getting at. Kairen was part of the embassy to Rand. But how is this relevant to anything?
Aran'gar was aware that the Rebels were about to get in contact with Asha'man, and couldn't predict Rand wouldn't get involved in this project of alliance between his men and the AS. Most likely he would have, or maybe not but it's because Taim is a traitor and not acting as the leader of the BT normally would have, transmitting this offer from the AS to the Dragon for approval. It wasn't a good time to commit murders using saidin, let alone kill women tied to her via Cabriana. Halima jeopardized her own safety doing this, and the risk was obvious.
In short I'm saying Beonin points out that the murderer, a saidin channler, killed Anaiya and Kairen due to some connection between them. She got it wrong because she assumes it must have something to do with Rand since the obvious Blue Ajah connection lead her to Moiraine which lead her to Rand. Aran'gar knows nothing of this connection and would have had no reason to kill either woman based on this connection either. The only motive Aran'gar has to kill these specific women is the connection to Cabriana.
Then Kairen suddenly arrives in camp and probably asked Halima a bunch of questions about Cabriana it seems likely that Aran'gar would have acted in her typical rash manner (she physically attacked SH remember) and just killed off the two women who could blow her cover if they started comparing notes.
Until Romanda learns of a woman who can wield saidin she doesn't make the connection either (and she only knew of the 3's friendship because Nisao had told her not long before about it, and Nisao didn't know about it until she went digging at Egwene's command), Aran'gar would never have been a suspect if Narishma hadn't told the story of Eben's death at the cleansing... suddenly 2 women with a connection to Halima's back story are dead from saidin inflicted wounds and it's fairly obvious who the killer was.
Note also that as soon as Delana told Aran'gar about the meeting they packed up and ran? Aran'gar knew damn well she was going to be caught.
Mesaana or any other male channeler had no reason and no opportunity to kill Aniaya or Kairen. And had Aran'gar not killed them she would have had no reason to flee the camp when a woman who can wield saidin was announced. The only thing tying her back to that was their murders and if she hadn't done it she wouldn't have known to run.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 11/06/2010 at 03:08:27 PM
Egwene's future
08/06/2010 10:10:28 AM
- 1171 Views
I've wondered if Egwene is "The Andoran Candidate"
08/06/2010 04:07:18 PM
- 410 Views
I rather think Aran'gar was a failure...
09/06/2010 10:56:42 AM
- 271 Views
Finally found a quote to redeem the Forsaken a bit
09/06/2010 03:53:37 PM
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Yeah, it's a bit strange...
09/06/2010 04:09:48 PM
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Re: Yeah, it's a bit strange...
09/06/2010 07:15:41 PM
- 234 Views
More thoughts in defense of this idea
09/06/2010 10:30:14 PM
- 224 Views
Re: More thoughts in defense of this idea
10/06/2010 01:26:54 PM
- 236 Views
Aran'gar certainly isn't Taim
10/06/2010 02:15:40 PM
- 218 Views
Implausible
10/06/2010 02:50:51 PM
- 222 Views
I mean...
10/06/2010 03:20:41 PM
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I still think yet another clue speaks loudly that Taim is a real Forsaken
10/06/2010 04:04:06 PM
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RJ explained Taim's look at the beginning of LoC
10/06/2010 04:25:54 PM
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Re: I still think yet another clue speaks loudly that Taim is a real Forsaken
10/06/2010 07:58:42 PM
- 268 Views
Mesaana's more likely. There just isn't enough time for it to be the Seanchan, imo *NM*
08/06/2010 08:31:07 PM
- 106 Views
On the other hand, we know that Egwene has to meet Seanchan yet. *NM*
09/06/2010 10:51:37 AM
- 105 Views
In book time, she'll probably be seeing Seta (and possibly Egeanin) in a couple hours
09/06/2010 11:09:08 AM
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They are in Caemlyn now...
09/06/2010 11:45:02 AM
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I didn't say it was important
09/06/2010 11:56:44 AM
- 217 Views
I mean...
09/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
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not going to happen
09/06/2010 09:10:16 PM
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Egwene's dreams are symbolic
09/06/2010 01:05:24 AM
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Some are more literal, while some are more symbolic
09/06/2010 10:51:09 AM
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Re: Some are more literal, while some are more symbolic
09/06/2010 06:54:14 PM
- 275 Views
As you said...
09/06/2010 08:33:13 PM
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Re: As you said...
10/06/2010 12:23:02 AM
- 241 Views
And they were Cabriana's best friends. Aran'gar killed them to cover her tracks
10/06/2010 01:48:13 PM
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Re: And they were Cabriana's best friends. Aran'gar killed them to cover her tracks
10/06/2010 11:02:36 PM
- 274 Views
I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too
11/06/2010 02:29:22 AM
- 226 Views
Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too
11/06/2010 01:33:27 PM
- 251 Views
Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too
11/06/2010 02:28:44 PM
- 235 Views
Re: I don't think Aran'gar is all that bright honestly... and we got a hint from the books too
11/06/2010 03:33:05 PM
- 413 Views
Found another relevant quote - Arangar wouldn't've needed Graendal's contacts in the AoL
11/06/2010 02:42:02 PM
- 259 Views
Re: As you said...
10/06/2010 08:32:12 PM
- 224 Views
Re: As you said...
10/06/2010 09:14:25 PM
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Re: As you said...
10/06/2010 11:40:52 PM
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So...
11/06/2010 08:46:41 AM
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Re: So...
11/06/2010 02:37:28 PM
- 219 Views
Nesta was impaled on a stake and her head put on a spike for rebellion
10/06/2010 01:44:53 PM
- 290 Views