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Re: He does DomA Send a noteboard - 04/09/2010 12:16:34 AM
What IS on topic for my post is the relationship between Mordred/Mordeth and Rand, and also Slayer and Rand. Arthur was killed by Mordred, his own blood, and I think it's fair to say that Fain and/or Slayer will have a hand in Rand's death at the LB.


It's possible, at least about Fain (Slayer's nowhere near important enough to get involved with Rand. He's Perrin's and Lan's foe) but it's in no way obvious.

Jordan was all too aware that the core references to key elements of Arthuriana would be "obvious" to a lot of his readers, and he made sure to muddle the most spoilerish of them. Is Mordeth the Mordred character in his mind? Jordan made it impossible to tell before the fact by multiplying the sources of reference to Mordred. Among Rand's foes, there's Mor(i)d(in) who can be the Mordred character, and there's (Deman)dred the jealous one, not to forget the character who has both the family tie and the "dred" name, Galad (Da)Modred (same as Moiraine, incidentally).

Another issue is that no character (unlike locations and objects) with an Arthurian name actually has a role very close to Arthurian tradition so far, so betting too heavily on Fain-Mordeth playing a Mordred like role is rather flimsy at this point... Bors was turned into a despicable drunk villain. Gawyn is only remotely like the Green Knight in personality, and nothing alike in his role in the plot (where Gawyn is much closer to the darker versions of Lancelot), same for Morgause, Elayne, Egwene al'Vere (Guinìèvre), Lan (Lancelot). Beside the fact she belongs to the "fairies" of "Avalon" in the story, Nynaeve doesn't have much in common with her Arthurian counterpart or her role, so far. Galad so far as nothing much in common with the story of Galahad.

So who's to say Jordan planned to make an exception and have one of the characters associated with Mordred (Demandred and his envy of LTT's role, and for his wife... Mordred stole Arthur's kindgom and kidnapped Guinevre in some versions; Moridin the main Foe, Fain-Mordeth whose name is the closest match) play Mordeth's role?
If anything, it's the character in the lot with the least connections to Mordred (Moridin) who is the most likely to play a central role in Rand's "death". He's the one with pawns circling around Elayne and the "capital" too...

The "Arthurian" reference with Mordeth has already played out. It doesn't mean there won't be more, but it's very uncertain. It belongs to WOT history (Aridhol) and was inspired by elements from both the Welsh and English (Mallory) traditions. Mordeth was a snake who managed to take control of a kindgom, killed the future King of the allied Kingdom and betrayed those allies -, resulting in the complete annihilation of Aridhol. Then there's Fain wounding Rand with a dolorous stroke that won't heal, which is another Arthurian reference, and perhaps his only one that will relate to the LB and Arthuriana. None of this is a perfect match for the Arthurian story, but you definitely see the influence in Mordreth's betrayal of his allies and the "apocalyptic" downfall of Aridhol. As Mordeth has the closest match to Mordred's name, I'd rather bet Jordan will go on not associating name and Arthurian role and Fain is the character who won't have anything directly to do with Rand's death in the Last Battle (the already given wound aside). Moridin, however...

But I think some of the core things will be, specifically Slayer and Mordeth's ties to Mordred (and possibly also Gawyn/Gawain's ties to him). Merlin's (Moiraine's) role might come into play too.


Merlin has been split into many characters, and it's one of those Jordan twisted around the most. Moiraine played a role vaguely like Merlin's early on (EOTW), but later it became a kind of inside joke as she became a kind of anti-Merlin, always a step behind the Arthur figure. Moiraine wasn't guiding Rand to Callandor, and he went without her. She was clueless about his real ancestry, she vanished in the middle of the story etc. Her downfall is Merlinesque in a way. In some versions, Merlin got trapped by a fairy in a kind of underworld.

The A(Myrlin) is named after a variation on the spelling of Merlin. The Green Man goes to the roots from which the character of Merlin arose. Perrin is another "proto-Merlin", the Celtic shamans (druids) brothers to wild animals (many could shape-shift), who walked dreams etc. and who are the direct ancestors of the characters of Merlin. Thom Mer(il)lin is another Merlin-inspired character, mixed with Taliesin (the Tower of Ghenjei alludes directly to a pre-Arthurian tale of the bard Taliesin, going to the underworld of the Fairies).

As far as I recall, Merlin has no role in the Battle of Camelot. Moiraine's role in TOM and beyond won't be inspired by Arthuriana. We can pretty much guess it will be more of a rebirth-transformation of some kind, either spiritual or magical, or both. Moiraine's too is due for an "epiphany" - she can't be the "old Moiraine" again, even if she's back in time for the Last Battle. My prediction is that Moiraine's role will be suprising to many, especially those who think she'll be back at Rand's side, taking the place Cadsuane had, and more recently Nynaeve is taking. Nynaeve isn't warming the seat for Moiraine, I'm pretty convinced of that (personally, I think Moiraine will tell Rand her role isn't at his side, but that Nynaeve must stay, so Moiraine will honour Nynaeve's sacrifice by going to give all the help she can to Lan, to try to make sure he survives and come back to Nynaeve. Lan has put aside his own war to be Moiraine's loyal servant in her quest to find Rand. It's time for to honour Lan's loyalty and join his war
What IS on topic for my post is the relationship between Mordred/Mordeth and Rand, and also Slayer and Rand. Arthur was killed by Mordred, his own blood, and I think it's fair to say that Fain and/or Slayer will have a hand in Rand's death at the LB.


It's possible, at least about Fain (Slayer's nowhere near important enough to get involved with Rand. He's Perrin's and Lan's foe) but it's in no way obvious.

Jordan was all too aware that the core references to key elements of Arthuriana would be "obvious" to a lot of his readers, and he made sure to muddle the most spoilerish of them. Is Mordeth the Mordred character in his mind? Jordan made it impossible to tell before the fact by multiplying the sources of reference to Mordred. Among Rand's foes, there's Mor(i)d(in) who can be the Mordred character, and there's (Deman)dred the jealous one, not to forget the character who has both the family tie and the "dred" name, Galad (Da)Modred (same as Moiraine, incidentally).

Another issue is that no character (unlike locations and objects) with an Arthurian name actually has a role very close to Arthurian tradition so far, so betting too heavily on Fain-Mordeth playing a Mordred like role is rather flimsy at this point... Bors was turned into a despicable drunk villain. Gawyn is only remotely like the Green Knight in personality, and nothing alike in his role in the plot (where Gawyn is much closer to the darker versions of Lancelot), same for Morgause, Elayne, Egwene al'Vere (Guinìèvre), Lan (Lancelot). Beside the fact she belongs to the "fairies" of "Avalon" in the story, Nynaeve doesn't have much in common with her Arthurian counterpart or her role, so far. Galad so far as nothing much in common with the story of Galahad.

So who's to say Jordan planned to make an exception and have one of the characters associated with Mordred (Demandred and his envy of LTT's role, and for his wife... Mordred stole Arthur's kindgom and kidnapped Guinevre in some versions; Moridin the main Foe, Fain-Mordeth whose name is the closest match) play Mordeth's role?
If anything, it's the character in the lot with the least connections to Mordred (Moridin) who is the most likely to play a central role in Rand's "death". He's the one with pawns circling around Elayne and the "capital" too...

The "Arthurian" reference with Mordeth has already played out. It doesn't mean there won't be more, but it's very uncertain. It belongs to WOT history (Aridhol) and was inspired by elements from both the Welsh and English (Mallory) traditions. Mordeth was a snake who managed to take control of a kindgom, killed the future King of the allied Kingdom and betrayed those allies -, resulting in the complete annihilation of Aridhol. Then there's Fain wounding Rand with a dolorous stroke that won't heal, which is another Arthurian reference, and perhaps his only one that will relate to the LB and Arthuriana. None of this is a perfect match for the Arthurian story, but you definitely see the influence in Mordreth's betrayal of his allies and the "apocalyptic" downfall of Aridhol. As Mordeth has the closest match to Mordred's name, I'd rather bet Jordan will go on not associating name and Arthurian role and Fain is the character who won't have anything directly to do with Rand's death in the Last Battle (the already given wound aside). Moridin, however...

But I think some of the core things will be, specifically Slayer and Mordeth's ties to Mordred (and possibly also Gawyn/Gawain's ties to him). Merlin's (Moiraine's) role might come into play too.


Merlin has been split into many characters, and it's one of those Jordan twisted around the most. Moiraine played a role vaguely like Merlin's early on (EOTW), but later it became a kind of inside joke as she became a kind of anti-Merlin, always a step behind the Arthur figure. Moiraine wasn't guiding Rand to Callandor, and he went without her. She was clueless about his real ancestry, she vanished in the middle of the story etc. Her downfall is Merlinesque in a way. In some versions, Merlin got trapped by a fairy in a kind of underworld.

The A(Myrlin) is named after a variation on the spelling of Merlin. The Green Man goes to the roots from which the character of Merlin arose. Perrin is another "proto-Merlin", the Celtic shamans (druids) brothers to wild animals (many could shape-shift), who walked dreams etc. and who are the direct ancestors of the characters of Merlin. Thom Mer(il)lin is another Merlin-inspired character, mixed with Taliesin (the Tower of Ghenjei alludes directly to a pre-Arthurian tale of the bard Taliesin, going to the underworld of the Fairies).

As far as I recall, Merlin has no role in the Battle of Camelot. Moiraine's role in TOM and beyond won't be inspired by Arthuriana. We can pretty much guess it will be more of a rebirth-transformation of some kind, either spiritual or magical, or both. Moiraine's too is due for an "epiphany" - she can't be the "old Moiraine" again, even if she's back in time for the Last Battle. My prediction is that Moiraine's role will be suprising to many, especially those who think she'll be back at Rand's side, taking the place Cadsuane had, and more recently Nynaeve is taking. Nynaeve isn't just warming the seat for Moiraine, I'm pretty convinced of that. Personally, I think Moiraine will tell Rand her role isn't at his side, but that Nynaeve must stay with him, so Moiraine will honour Nynaeve's own sacrifice by going to give all the help she can to Lan, to try to make sure he survives and comes back to Nynaeve. Lan has put aside his own war to be Moiraine's loyal servant in her quest to find Rand. It's time for to honour Lan's loyalty and join his war, and redeem the Tower who wasn't there for Malkier at the same time. Moiraine will assemble Aes Sedai (or go back to the Tower for that, and Egwene will send the whole Green Ajah with Moiraine) and bring them to Lan, which will be vital in giving Lan a chance to hold the invasion long enough).

The thing is also, the Arthurian last battle (the name "Camlaan" from the disastrous Battle of Camlaan - worst even in the Welsh version than the English one - was even picked up in a popular Welsh expression in the middle-Ages "that's a real Camlann" that meant "an apocalyptic" disaster, an Armageddon";) has really nothing to do with the fight with the Dark One, the Bore or the Sealing. The classic version has the Return of Arthur from oversea war, to find Britain in chaos, Camelot conquered, with Mordred having taken over and kidnapped his Queen. A big battle ensues, in which Arthur and his "world" end. Jordan already twisted elements of that into the Seanchan's Return - with the Paendrags returning from oversea to find their Kingdom taken over, and fighting to reconquer it. Who's to say it's not the war of conquest of the Paendrags that will fail in tragedy in echo of the Arthurian legends? Rand's not the sole "King Arthur" character in this story, and Arthur's not the only Arthurian character that heavily influences Rand's. He's as importantly if not more the Fisher-King figure.

If Jordan planned an Arthurian-inspired Last Battle and "finale" down the line, it's far more likely to take place at a city (Caemlyn seems the magnet where the "big reunion" will happen, and was the story's first city and still its most central one), and for a twist, not be the end of the story, because Jordan might very well have decided that the allusions in the Arthurian epilogues (Arthur not being dead but magically asleep, or healing in the care of the Ladies of Avalon, to return one day when the Land needs him most - in some version, it's when a Dragon will arise to destroy Britain that Arthur is prophecied to come back - I guess you can see the reversed connection there...)

A lot of people have theorized over the years that Jordan planned to have a gigantic Arthurian battle at Caemlyn toward the beginning of TG, where Rand will appear to die, and be taken to Tar Valon (perhaps on Egwene's Skimming boat in my version of this theory - not a coincidence that the "Lady of Avalon" has a boat as Skimming platform, IMO) where he will be "brought back to life" (so to speak) by Nynaeve at the time of the world's greatest need, that is, to accomplish what only he can accomplish: facing the Dark One.

The name aside, all the characters seem geared for a reunion in Caemlyn. It's right there that Taim is, Logain's foe and most likely soon to be Egwene's as well. Elayne is already there and now so is Mat, and Rand seems set for a reunion with his three women there (Aviendha was even foreshadowed to "come visit" when she left for AD). Only Galad and Perrin are less obvious, but Caemlyn is where Faile thinks her father is, and it's one of the two cities where Perrin might expect to find Rand or his people, so... There's the Seanchan as well... In KOD Yulan's plan involved two maps, only one of which Jordan revealed (Tar Valon). Tar Valon was indeed one of Yulan's targets - but which is the second one? The Black Tower seems likely.

We know the main characters will converge toward the climax of TOM to a single location, where an event will happen that marks the true beginning of the Last Battle... The old theory about the Arthurian battle occuring in Caemlyn sounds more and more likely to me.

That wouldn't leave much relevant "Arthuriana" for the Shayol Ghul events, and really, pushing back the Devil from the world is barely an Arthurian theme at all, especially Jordan's version which is way to messianic for the Arthurian legends, and not inspired by that at all. Excalibur also marked Arthur as the true King, it never had any "devil repelling" connotation (the Arthurian object of salvation is the san greal - that ought not to be taken with power and glory in mind but with a pure heart and salvation in mind - not Arthur's sword. Rand has already have the "san angreal" moment in TGS. In Jordan's version, Rand regains his pure heart and mind by embracing salvation-redemption and rejecting the power of the san angreal, ie: the Choedan Kal, the key to which was properly found in the Wastelands and its Magical Castle of the "Fisher-King", ie: Rhuidean in the Waste),

The "Battle of Caemlyn", a huge defeat for the Light in the Arthurian tragic vein, would set the tone for the rest of Last Battle. Jordan likes too much his happy endings to give even a remote chance to the Shadow for final victory, yet he can't make TG a ride in the park either. He has to make us doubt if even for just a minute. A massive defeat for the Light at the beginning of TG would do the trick (and would be a classic device in epics at the beginning of the last act - even Tolkien used it with the near downfall of Minas Tirith and the capture of Frodo), raise the stakes and make the Shadow a little more obviously dangerous at last. This would be the "Great Battle" of Nicola's foretelling, with Rand dead yet in truth alive, three in a boat, the move of the "Light's Headquarters" to Tar Valon. As for "the world tethers on the edge of a blade" bit, this would be a reference to the sword of Light and its importance for the Last Battle (and I still don't think it's Callandor, for myself. It was too early to reveal the solution, and I think it's a red herring. The important sword, about which LTT knew secrets he wouldn't tell Rand in TGS - so Rand said toward the ending isn't Callandor but Justice, Artur's sword - and the three shall be one seems painfully obvious - not two women and Rand as the Callandor red herring would have it, but the three ta'veren, the final revelation that the three of them are vital.).

The thing is also, the Arthurian last battle (the name "Camlaan" from the disastrous Battle of Camlaan - worst even in the Welsh version than the English one - was even picked up in a popular Welsh expression in the middle-Ages "that's a real Camlann" that meant "an apocalyptic" disaster, an Armageddon";) has really nothing to do with the fight with the Dark One, the Bore or the Sealing. The classic version has the Return of Arthur from oversea war, to find Britain in chaos, Camelot conquered, with Mordred having taken over and kidnapped his Queen. A big battle ensues, in which Arthur and his "world" end. Jordan already twisted elements of that into the Seanchan's Return - with the Paendrags returning from oversea to find their Kingdom taken over, and fighting to reconquer it. Who's to say it's not the war of conquest of the Paendrags that will fail in tragedy in echo of the Arthurian legends? Rand's not the sole "King Arthur" character in this story, and Arthur's not the only Arthurian character that heavily influences Rand's. He's as importanly if not more the Fisher-King figure.

If Jordan planned an Arthurian-inspired Last Battle and "finale" down the line, it's far more likely to take place at a city (Caemlyn seems the magnet where the "big reunion" will happen, and was the story's first city and still its most central one), and for a twist, not be the end of the story, because Jordan might very well have decided that the allusions in the Arthurian epilogues (Arthur not being dead but magically asleep, or healing in the care of the Ladies of Avalon, to return one day when the Land needs him most - in some version, it's when a Dragon will arise to destroy Britain that Arthur is prophecied to come back - I guess you can see the reversed connection there...) will serve as a basis to bring his finale completely elsewhere, beyond the Arthurian setting. This would fit his concept of garbled legends and myth perfectly, as in "our age", the Arthurian legends end with Camelot and Arthur's dead, and are completely divorced from a battle to push the Devil back out of the world, which belongs primarly with the mythology of religions old and new (from the norse Ragnarok, the demise of the Tuatha Dé Danaan to the Book of Revelation which is a major, major influence for the LB, to many more "apocalypses" like the Jain's (where a champion arises to fight a dragon like Devil so a new cycle of Ages can begin).

A lot of people have theorized over the years that Jordan planned to have a gigantic Arthurian battle at Caemlyn toward the beginning of TG, where Rand will appear to die, and be taken to Tar Valon (perhaps on Egwene's Skimming boat in my version of this theory - not a coincidence that the "Lady of Avalon" has a boat as Skimming platform, IMO) where he will be "brought back to life" (so to speak) by Nynaeve at the time of the world's greatest need, that is, to accomplish what only he can accomplish: facing the Dark One.

The name aside, all the characters seem geared for a reunion in Caemlyn. It's right there that Taim is, Logain's foe and most likely soon to be Egwene's as well. Elayne is already there and now so is Mat, and Rand seems set for a reunion with his three women there (Aviendha was even foreshadowed to "come visit" when she left for AD). Only Galad and Perrin are less obvious, but Caemlyn is where Faile thinks her father is, and it's one of the two cities where Perrin might expect to find Rand or his people, so... There's the Seanchan as well... In KOD Yulan's plan involved two maps, only one of which Jordan revealed (Tar Valon). Tar Valon was indeed one of Yulan's targets - but which is the second one? The Black Tower seems likely.

We know the main characters will converge toward the climax of TOM to a single location, where an event will happen that marks the true beginning of the Last Battle... The old theory about the Arthurian battle occuring in Caemlyn sounds more and more likely to me.

That wouldn't leave much relevant "Arthuriana" for the Shayol Ghul events, and really, pushing back the Devil from the world is barely an Arthurian theme at all, especially Jordan's version which is way to messianic for the Arthurian legends, and not inspired by that at all. Excalibur also marked Arthur as the true King, it never had any "devil repelling" connotation (the Arthurian object of salvation is the san greal - that ought not to be taken with power and glory in mind but with a pure heart and salvation in mind - not Arthur's sword. Rand has already have the "san angreal" moment in TGS. In Jordan's version, Rand regains his pure heart and mind by embracing salvation-redemption and rejecting the power of the san angreal, ie: the Choedan Kal, the key to which was properly found in the Wastelands and its Magical Castle of the "Fisher-King", ie: Rhuidean in the Waste),

The "Battle of Caemlyn", a huge defeat for the Light in the Arthurian tragic vein, would set the tone for the rest of Last Battle. Jordan likes too much his happy endings to give even a remote chance to the Shadow for final victory, yet he can't make TG a ride in the park either. He has to make us doubt if even for just a minute. A massive defeat for the Light at the beginning of TG would do the trick (and would be a classic device in epics at the beginning of the last act - even Tolkien used it with the near downfall of Minas Tirith and the capture of Frodo), raise the stakes and make the Shadow a little more obviously dangerous at last. This would be the "Great Battle" of Nicola's foretelling, with Rand dead yet in truth alive, three in a boat, the move of the "Light's Headquarters" to Tar Valon. As for "the world tethers on the edge of a blade" bit, this would be a reference to the sword of Light and its importance for the Last Battle (and I still don't think it's Callandor, for myself. It was too early to reveal the solution, and I think it's a red herring. The important sword, about which LTT knew secrets he wouldn't tell Rand in TGS - so Rand said toward the ending isn't Callandor but Justice, Artur's sword - and the three shall be one seems painfully obvious - not two women and Rand as the Callandor red herring would have it, but the three ta'veren, the final revelation that the three of them are vital.).

This message last edited by DomA on 04/09/2010 at 12:34:40 AM
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obviously... - 31/08/2010 05:30:32 PM 1609 Views
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Jordan had some sexual fantasies to work out. - 31/08/2010 06:36:54 PM 1380 Views
because he wants to make a lot of babies obvi.... *NM* - 31/08/2010 07:16:04 PM 595 Views
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I am approaching this from the angle of the overall story and structure - 31/08/2010 07:32:54 PM 1298 Views
agreed. *NM* - 31/08/2010 10:06:08 PM 486 Views
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My favorite part. - 08/09/2010 05:41:31 AM 881 Views
Morgan le Fay = Meirin IMO, not Min. *NM* - 01/09/2010 05:05:25 AM 549 Views
RJ tried to have his cake and eat it too. - 01/09/2010 02:17:47 AM 1267 Views
Re: Why does Rand have 3 wives? - 01/09/2010 02:23:49 AM 16685 Views
Well, RJ dated two women at once - and they were cool with it - but there's more - 01/09/2010 02:57:38 AM 1328 Views
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Because sometimes two of the wives have a headache. *NM* - 06/09/2010 02:59:19 PM 464 Views

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